OK, I took the plunge and I purchased the Academy’s 1/35th DAP Blackhawk, thinking I could do one that was in Somolia in 1993 timeframe. I did my usual work-up walk around book, by literally downloading all the pic’s of these on the net, and I noticed that this kit, is different than the ones in 1993. So all of you who have more knowledge than me about helo’s, I need to know;
Did they acually use the Aux Fuel tank in a combat insertion, etc?
Does anyone have pic’s of the space where the tank sits? (Showing the mounts etc)
Were both the .50 Cal, and the 7.62 mini-gun used at the same time?
Was the AGM-144 Hellfire/M299 Missle Launcher rails used at this time?
The colour of the helo’s … some say Black (Semi Gloss or True Flat) or the FS # for Helo Drab?
Layout for crew’s effects like M16, MP-5’s etc?
A Clear shot of the engine, showing the plumbing etc
Was the IFR used at this time? On the Helo’s in Somolia?
As I look at this kit, i think that the nose radar must be a later add-on, as I do have a picture of a sligtly earlier DAP without this radar. But it still dates to about 1997, so I can’t judge it. I also need photo’s of the weapon mounts, and the small stuff in the cabin. Also, any info as to Serial numbers. I have a Clear Shot of Cliff Wolcott, in front of the “Velvet Elvis” but there is no decals I can find showin his bird. What was the Serial number of it?
This kit is huge, and has great detail, but there is one thing missing, NO PILOTS/CREW!!! This is important, as Helo’s just don’t fly themselves, do they???
Also, on the web, I found a shot of the engine/eletrical ( a small two wheeled thing that also acts as a power washer!) starter device from one manufacturer, so does anyone have pict’s of these things, and the weapon’s loaders hoists etc?
The MH-60’s used in Somalia were L models. These were basically modifeid UH-60L Blackhawks. Because of the short distances to the insertion targets, the Aux. fuel tank was not installed (allowed for a full combat chaulk-18 troops to be ferried to the target area). These choppers did not have the IFR probe, ESSS wings or pylons, plume detectors, nose mounted radar, or laser detectors. They did have the FLIR turret. For defensive weaponary, they had two swivel mounted 7.62 Miniguns. Overall color was flat black with olive drab lettering. Let me do some digging, somewhere on the web, someone had posted photos of the actual Gothic Serpent MH-60s in flight over Somalia.
Rob,
I spent a little over 5 months there and have answered a lot of the same questions you have asked. Here goes:
The 160th MH-60L’s didn’t use internal aux tanks as the ranges flown were minimal, and they were primarily configured for max pax. Some of the regular army -60’s used ESSS and the Medevac -60’s as well.
There actually two internal aux tanks mounted side-by-side against the rear bulkhead. Sometimes we use only one, sometimes both, sometimes neither. The mission and environment dictate how many.
Since we’re talking about Gothic Serpent, only the M-134 miniguns were used. Ever insert bird also carried two (sometimes 3) Delta snipers. The D-boy snipers used M-25’s (accurized M-14’s) M-4’s and I think a saw a couple SR-25’s or AR-10’s.
While the 160th guys brought two DAP kits with them and even used them for training (to keep currency etc…) they were never used operationally during Gothic Serpent. For that fact, I don’t remember ever seeing an MH-60L using ESSS during my deployment there.
The MH-60L’s in Gothic Serpent were Army Helo Drab (I’ve got the photos to prove it). Interestingly the Killer Eggs and 6-Pax (AH-6’s and MH-6’s) were flat black.
A personal think for each crewmember. MP-5’s were sometime carried in thigh rigs but were generally stowed up front somewhere. Crewchiefs had M-4 carbines and M-16A2’s usually stowed behind the pilot’s seats but were also stowed elsewhere. We stowed them hanging off the webbing on the H-bar directly over the minigun ammo bins. All crewmembers also usually carried at least one pistol (issues M-9, but some had Sigs and 1911’s) in a thigh rig or in a vest holster.
IFR probes were not used in Gothic Serpent for the same reason as Item 1). Add that the only refueling asset were two USMC KC-130’s based out of Mombasa Kenya but I think they left when the marines left prior to Gothic Serpent.
I vividly remember that some MH-60L’s had the nose radar and some did not. All had the FLIR turret mount’s but didn’t have FLIR installed for every mission. There were no plume detectors that I saw but each one had nose and tail mounted APR-39 radar detectors.
I’ve got LOTS of pics, but they’re pretty big (resolution) and I still haven’t mastered how to make them smaller. If you’ve got the space in your e-mail account, shoot me your e-mail address and I’ll try to hook you up. I’m currently pulling SAR alert and we’re in the middle of our busy season so bear with me on the time.
Check out Mike Durant’s book, “In The Company of Heroes.” It’s a facinating read and it backs up everything Sal mentioned about the crewmen’s weapons (Durant’s own MP5 kept jamming on him)
The MH-60 DAP photo you’ve got might be a MH-60A. The MH-60A was the first Army Special Ops Blackhawk to enter service with Task Force 158, which was formed for a second attempt to rescue American hostages in Iran in 1980. A second attempt was never launched, but rather than disband the newly formed task force, the Army leadership decided to keep it as a permanent asset in case something like the Iran embassy incident occured again. The unit was redesignated, Task Force 160 in 1981. The MH-60A has no radar, but does have the AN/AAQ-16 FLIR. The UH-60s for TF 158 came from the 158th Aviation Battalion, 101st Air Assault Division.
Thanks for the information. I have Durants’s book already, and I have most of the pict’s from the internet too. I have been planning this model for about 7 months now. Salbando, my alternate e-mail is;
robsavage19@yahoo.ca
and I appriciate any pict’s that you send me. I check my e-m’s each day, ecept for Sunday’s, as I am using the Public Library system’s computers.
Albymoore, thanks for the links too, as I have now downloaded these pictures too. Adrake2 thanks for the information too! Keep it coming folks!!
What is needed here folks, is confirmation and pictures of the tail numbers, and the artwork on each Helo. I have read the posts as much as I can, from the Aircraft resource center website, and others, and there is much disagreement as to the colour of the helo’s, the tail numbers, and the artwork. Also, I just realized that I think I bought the wrong kit, as I should have purchased the MH-60 kit #2192 or #2201 from Academy. Oh Well, what else is new, as it looks like a tough project! I like projects like this, where there is much contriversy about the final subject. Again, PLEASE KEEP the information coming. I think that a complitation article is needed here, to settle the score. It is important as this is a reminder of what these folks did for us!
Also I have video I shot of the first UH-60’s way back in 1985 time period. I live in London Ontario and each year we have the largest modern military airshow in North America, outside of a airforce base. Usually NATO aircraft, and in this year, it was the first time that the Blackhawks appeared. I have a fond memorie of being blown over, at the end of the show, as these Blackhawks had to leave early and yours truly was sitting about 30 ft away from one, as it wound up and took off. I stood up to get a better shot of it (with my new $7000 dollar {then!!} Video Camera) and the pilots took off over me, and the rotor wash blew me and the camera over and over and over. In the video you see the Blackhawk lift up then all hell breaks loose, as the scene shifts to a whirling dirvish of green and sky. (the grass at the airport had just been cut that morning !)
I haven’t looked at that tape in a long time, but I distintly remember that these Helo’s were black too.
Thanks for the information and please keep it coming!
I’m currently working on a MH-60L, though I’m not sure if I’m going to set it in Somalia. I’m using a 70-30 mix of Model Master US Army Helo Drab and Model Master Flat Black as the overall color of the helo. It seems to be very close to the actual color. I wouldn’t use straight flat black since the sun bleaches the aircraft so the actual color is a very dark grey. A perfect match for the faded flat black of the SOAR helicopters is Aircraft Interior Black. Hope this helps.
That rotor wash is really something. My ROTC unit was fortunate enough to do an air assualt mission every April. This time we landed on a sandy clearing in the middle of a forest. When the Blackhawk lifted off, I was under the rotor disc in the prone position. Sand went down my neck and in my helmet. It was great (the ride on the Blackhawk, not the sand in my uniform).
HAHAHA![(-D][(-D][(-D][(-D] Getting sandblasted by a Blackhawk. I there, man!.. I remember that I ended up with a mouth full of cut grass (NO, not THAT KIND!) and I couldn’t breathe for a second or two. Thanks for the colour suggestions, as that sounds more right than the FS# colour paint (for helo drab) that I saw at my LHS, last week.
At least you have had a ride or two in a Blackhawk ([^][^][tup][:-^]) as all I have done is sat in the doorway. I’ve had access (again at the airshow) to a C-47, and an HH-53, and in this HH-53, someone forgot to lock the stowage box behind the co-pilot, and in this box was a M-60! Wholly Crap!, I thought, that’s all we need, was some kid pulling this thing out of that box … the Helo was full of 10 year olds, pulling at this and grabbing that … and in the footage you will see me put my foot (or trying to …) to close it, trying to keep little hands from playing with it. I warned the father to watch his kids. At least I have colour footage of the inside of this HH-53.
Anybody else got funny stories about Blackhawks, etc ??? PLEASE keep the tips coming, as I need all that I can get!
All, I too am planning on building a MH-60K out of the 1/35 Academy MH-60G USAF Pavehawk kit. I bought it before the DAP bird came out. I only need a FLIR turret to complete the gathering of extra parts to make it into a US Army MH-60K. Does anyone have an extra FLIR turret or could someone cast one for me. I am willing to pay or trade for it. I have a huge stash of parts for helos and armor. Thanks.
For an Operation Gothic Serpent MH-60L Heres what I can tell you as told to me by a Doorgunner from the 160th who flew the mission on Oct 3-4 1993. The Blackhawks were all MH-60L, They were black with OD Markings, No IFR probe, Pilot Doors were removed for missions, FLIR and Radar Dome were fitted but not the angled missile detectors on the nose. No ESSS wings were used during missions the AH-6 was used for fire support. The internal fuel tanks were removed for missions due to small distances flown and to fit more passengers in the back. the aircrafts call sign was painted on the window of the cargo door on both side eg Super 68 had “68” painted on the windows. As for the Crews they all wore Desert sand coloured flying suits with a pistol usualy on the thigh and ther survival vest( unsure what type) and helmet personal weapons were Mp-5 or M-16 usually. M-134 were the only weapons carried no .50s and the miniguns were fed by 2 individual 20mm ammo box one per gun not the huge central one like the HH-60G in the Kit . As for Crew i can recommend the Dragon Nam chopper crew need a bit of tweaking but theyll fit the part( and the cockpit thank god) and for the back the options are endless ive got the 1993 Delta force and the US Sniper team to do some mixing and matching to get what Im after. thats all i can thing of off hand but hopefully its helped a bit
I have a second question … I am still in the prep stage for this build, and I have noticed that the rotorblades on the Blackhawk have tips that either turn up or turn down. But I am not clear as to wether the blades (tips) act like the variable-pitch propellers on a plane or two are turned down and two are turned up, all the time. I have seen models with this arrangement, but I cannot find any pictures that are clear, that show all four tips clearly to answer this question. I would think that if the latter was correct, the ride in this helo would be rough.
Not sure what you are talking about. All the UH-60s I have seen (including the Academy kit) have flat or straight blades in the horizontal plane. From above, the blade tips angle back. The entire blade does rotate up or down to a degree like variable pitch on a propeller. This is what gives the helicopter lift. The more pitch in the blades, the more bite the blades take out of the air and the more lift produced. The blades on all helos act in this manner. That is what makes them fly. All four blades move in the same direction when the collective stick on the floor of the cockpit is pulled up or down, thus controlling verticle flight. The cyclical stick controls horizontal flight by moving the entire rotor head in the direction you want to travel. The foot pedals contrlo the rotation of the tail in the yaw axis by changing the pitch of the tail rotor, just like a propeller and moving the tail right or left about the axis of the rotaor blades.
Thanks for the answer HeavyArty. Maybe I should clarify my question this way: On the side of the Academy Box, it shows the completed model with two tips that, if you look at them on a profile or side on view, two angle up and two angle down. I have pict’s from the Net, that show this same thing, but they only show one blade, not all four at the same time. The only video tape I have of a Blackhawk, unforunatley shows it with it’s blades turning (the one that blew me over …) and it is useless for this question. If you look at the blades, on the sprues, they angle back as you said above, but they are all flat.
My thinking is that they are the same as the variable pitch on a standard prop, and they are in this (two up and two down) configuation as if the bird had just landed. It is a small point, but this makes a Blackhawk kit stand out, as this is one of the first points (place) that you look at, if looking at the completed kit.
Thanks for information and please keep the answers coming!
Some pics that may be of interest to you. According to the post, the photos are from Operation Restore Hope. These were posted at a military photo discussion board.
Rob,
I think it is someone using creative modeling. It is not possible to have two blades up and two down on a Blackhawk or any other type helicopter. The blades are all connected and work together. You can not selectively change the pitch of them. All four would have the same pitch.
Rob,
I think it is someone using creative modeling. It is not possible to have two blades up and two down on a Blackhawk or any other type helicopter. The blades are all connected and work together. You can not selectively change the pitch of them. All four would have the same pitch.
I’ll try it again. On a Blackhawk, at the end of the rotor blade, the last maybe 36 inches or so is swept back. In some of the pictures I have (about 35 pictures from the Internet) one tip is swept back and up, but on other pictures, (again about 30 or so) it is swept back and down. I guess I was not clear in my last post, as it could said that I meant the whole blade. I only mean the last 36 inches or so, with the rest of the Blade flat to the rotor mast.
The reason I ask this is that on the Academy box, on the side panels, are pictures of the completed kit, showing two tips pointing down and the next two pointing up (very slightly … about 2’ up)
For the sake of reality, having no memory of the only time I have seen a Blackhawk, I can’t seem to find a picture showing all four blades accurately.
It’s a moot point, but ya know, if I complete the kit, someone will then say, " …the blades are wrong, they should be this …" and that deflates all the intended work on this kit
Remember, I mostly do Armour, and you can (and many do …) argue about this or that on a tank or armoured vehicle. I strive for exactatude in all my kits, and that is why it takes me sometimes a year or so on one kit, as I check and re-check references each day.
Thanks and keep the information coming …all appieciated!
Rob Savage
PS If you have a link that shows a Blackhawk with all four blades clearly, then PLEASE post it. Thanks again!
I agree with you on the research and striving for reality and accucy. However, I still hold to my claim that the blades do not do that. They are a solid blade without any ability to turn, bend, or twist up or down at the tips only. If you could point me to some of these photos, maybe it will clear it up.
