Accuracy vs.Authenticity vs.Just plain fun .

General Discussion General Modeling Discussion
1

Hi Ya’ll it’s Meee :

Got to thinking about some things and thought I would start this thread . Now firstly , what is accuracy ?That , my friend , is the big Elephant in the room . Accuracy means , to me , that if you can, you include every part, every where with the proper fastenings ( Rivets , Bolts ) and make sure the count is right .

I got a lesson on that when I did a model for a Lawyer for a personal injury case ( Before Computer graphics ) I had to literally count the Rivets and Bolts on a 1/24 scale truck frame and make sure they were all there in the right number and place .Otherwise it wouldn’t be allowed into the evidence for the plaintiff .

They actually ( Both sides had to agree to it ) Had to by orders of the judge , have a fellow come in from the truck mfgr. and check out the model for this claimed accuracy .

Luckily he signed off on it .I had worked from only Brochures from the Truck brand’s sales lot in Memphis . Whooeee , that worried me .No Acceptance means No pay !

Now Authenticity . Okay you want to do a plane for a friend .Does it look like his ? Are the instruments in the right pattern on the panel ? Are the tyres the right tread or groove pattern ? See , it’s very close to accuracy . Not quite in some things but very close . If I did a Super - Tanker with a nice wave cleaving bow it wouldn’t be authentic . If I did it without the Bulb on the bow it wouldn’t be authentic or accurate . See how these intertwine ?

Now just plain fun .Suppose I had two ship models and they got broken up .So just for the heck of it I create another strange looking , but perfectly viable ship from it , that is just for fun .Why ? Well , it’s neat to do and you save a lot of plastic from the round file , BUT , you had a lot of fun making this "What If " come to pass .See , Just plain fun .

I lived near a boatyard when I was little and what they would do to preserve a vessel that was still useful amazed this kid . Who ever thought of a high muckety muck yacht from an old de-crepit WW1 sub Chaser ? A salvage Tug from an old cut down LCM6 ? See there’s a lot you can do for fun .How about taking a Spitfire or a Mustang or F-4U4 and creating a pylon racer from a old broken kit ? See , just for the fun of it .

So in closing make it as accurate as you want . Make it as authentic as you want , BUT , please NEVER forget the fun factor ? Model on T.B.

Accuracy - The Quality or state of being correct or precise.

Authenticity - the Quality of being authentic .

Just Plain Fun - A state or mindset of enjoyment for the sake of pleasure .

2

Accuracy may be nice, but sometimes, you just need to do something for the joy of it.

3

Speed is fine… accuracy is final…

oops, sorry, that is combat shooting.

4

Spoken (or typed) like a true Marine, stik! [:D] [proplr]

Gary Mason

5

TB I don’t understand half the stuff you say, my problem I guess.

Are you saying accuracy and authenticity are different things? My feeble mind can’t grasp that one.

I used to subscribe to Air and Space mag. Years ago there was a story about how the facility was restoring some bizarre German fighter like a Dornier Arrow. In taking it apart to clean it up, the restoration people found a lot of deliberately flawed mechanical work done by slave labor, supposedly in the hope the thing would crash.

So what do you do?

6

I just like to make models that give a good representation of the real thing.

This is an example of what I mean by a “good representation”. I used copper tubing to represent the exhaust pipes on a B-29. The angle of the tubes are wrong and the round shape of the tubing is wrong. However, the tubes give a good representation of the real thing and are an improvement on the exaust pipes that were included with the kit. IMHO, it is not possible to make a model 100% accurate. I have not run across any rivet counters on this forum.

7

If we want to be accurate and authentic, should we not be building our models at a 1/1 scale? Somehow, these little plastic kits are just a bit short of the mark. Luckily, computer models may one day get us there. [;)]

No animals were harmed in the writing of this comment…

Gary

8

Problem with trying for true accuracy is that it’s time consuming, wind up building less models, can stop being fun and can lead to a collection of shelf queens. Dropping a couple hundred plus dollars on a kit only to spend the same amount or more on PE or resin sets so to make the kit truly accurate is a pain too. But I still love the hobby and always will.

9

I should pre-text this message by saying; I am not a professional builder though I did build on commission and for competition many years ago. I am not an expert, I am nothing more than a simple hobby builder.

Regarding accuracy, sometimes I like to research the real item and try to add or fix some of the things on a kit specific vehicle or variant. Doing that research to me is fun as I learn more about the kit I’m building. Sometimes I personally consider it part of the modeling experience. When I try to apply it to the kit I strive to make a “recognizable scale facimile” of the upgrade with as much accuracy as my old hands, eyes, and budget can accomplish. Sometimes, to me that is part of the fun in building scale replicas.

There are other times when I need a simple stress reliever and build something straight out of the box (OOB), quick and simple, regardless of its accuracy. Yes, times I like what is called a “comfort build”. Honestly, during those simple builds, I really do not care if the rivet counters like it or not, it is my build, it is a hobby.

Another important item to add is that constructive input or assistance when asked is another great benefit of the forum. Like many things said in life (work, marriage, etc.) it is often not what you say, but rather how you say it. A message written in text can be meant one way and be receive in another (and it can never be taken back). I always strive to keep my remarks positive. I would normally never add any critisims for accuracy unless sombody asked for that input. I’m OK with all of this, as it is not a competition. It is a hobby to enjoy with others who share similar interests.

Speaking boldly, for those competitors or want to be judges bent on crushing sombodys build because of a accuracy, I think your in the wrong forum. My friends and I here build for the passion and enjoyment of building, sometimes accurate and sometimes not. Competition has its place and I do not think it is not here, at least not for me. Remember everyone, this is a hobby.

With all that said, I want to tell everyone that the most important thing for me is to have fun with the kit, learn something, practice an old or new skill, or even gain a new modeling friend. The bottom line when I build is for MY enjoyment and satisfaction, not always for upmost accuracy. Nobody will make a fortune doing this, if so it is not a hobby, it is a JOB… WORK. The best or most accurate / perfect kit ever built will never save a life, end world hunger, or establish world peace.

When it is all said and done, build for your personal satisfaction… accurate or not. And remember, it is a hobby to be enjoyed, regardless if an item is percieved as perfect or accurate. Enjoy your kit you build and share it with others, that is a hobby.

v/r,

Ben

10

But I was Army [;)]

As far as the original premise of the post goes, I can’t make out TB’s differentiation between accuracy and authenticity.

As far as my building style goes, it’s somewhere between fun and accuracy/authenticity, depending upon the subject matter.

11

To some people, creating accuracy is ‘just plain fun.’

Back when the only Abrams tank kits were the old Tamiya M1 and Esci M1 kits, I had a lot of fun scratchbuilding the kits into an M1A1. It was around 1988-89 when I bought a cheap Italeri Leopard II to use the gun tube.

Before this, I built kits out of the box and it was fun. A long time ago, I had built the old Monogram M48A2 Patton tank. When I started tanking in 1984, my first tank was an M48A5, different main gun and different cupola. Since there wasn’t a kit of one, and I hadn’t heard of aftermarket items, I just painted the Vietnam era tank into a rough approximation of a modern camouflage paint scheme. It was a very inaccurate representation of my tank, but I was okay with it. And I had fun bringing some new life into a decade old kit. I still have that kit to this day. I believe I built it in 1978 or 79.

Fast forward to my brand new M1A1 Abrams tank. Of course, I wanted to make an accurate representation of my new ride, but a kit of it did not exist. So I started with one of the available kits and had to look for items to update that kit into the tank I wanted to model.

I started with a new gun tube from the Leopard II kit. Using a little bit of foresight, I decided to cast a copy of the gun tube in resin, my first attempt at using resin. It turned out quite well (in my opinion at the time).

I built up the shorter sponson boxes with sheet styrene and extended the bustle rack with styrene rod, some mesh netting and strips of Evergreen.

In the end, it was a decent conversion, but not truly accurate. It looked so good that several fellow lieutenants asked me to build ones for them. They provided the Esci or Tamiya kit and I did the conversion. For me, it was a free model kit to build. I made three converted kits including my original one. I gave it away as a gift to my old platoon sergeant when I left Germany.

I had a lot of fun trying to replicate my tank by expanding my skills and trying new things.

Today, I build mainly out of box, fixing items that may need a little tweaking, but nothing major. To be honest, I probably had more pure fun when I was trying to accurize a cruddy kit than I do building one of the uber-accurate kits straight out of box.

12

I am still not sure I see the difference between accuracy and authenticity in this thread.

As a sensors and measurement guy, I recognize the difference between accuracy and precision (or repeatabilty). The definition of authenticity in scale modeling is still a fuzzy one to me.

13

It may just be semantics, but I see accuracy as an element of construction. Proper tracks on the vehicle for the time period, or right type of aircraft on a carrier for the time period of the markings and fittings.

Authenticity would be something not quite right in the representation. A model of a highly accurate modern Leopard tank in Afrika Korps markings or an M1A2 Abrams with Marine Corps markings would fall into this category. A Navy F-15 fighter, might be an accurate kit, but not authentic.

14

In addition to modeling, I restore Model A and Model T Fords. The judging standards manual put out by the two national clubs for the Model A, which was only produced for only four years, is almost two inches thick and is updated every couple years. Things such as not only what types of fasteners were used but the finish on those fasteners is highly specified, no finish, Raven finish, cadmium plated, zinc plated, etc. and they changed from year to year, country to country, and body style to body style. Judging an authentic, accurate, and correct restoration would be impossible without the extensively researched standards book. Even so, exceptions to the standards do crop up and are allowed with documentation. There are also different levels of restoration which are judged against each other, fine point, touring class, modified which allow increasing divergence from the standards.

All that to say accuracy, authenticity, correctness is really in the eye of the beholder without an extensive manual, agreed by all, that specifies what is correct - which would be pretty impossible for most of the objects we model.

Can something be accurate, but not authentic? Or the converse? It probably goes to a matter of level - could you have something 80% accurate (whatever that means) and 50% authentic? Think about the Luft46 pieces, totally conjectural for the most part, but could be very well researched in terms of probable construction and finish. To my eye, it’s still accurate and authentic plus sets my mind racing.

15

Okay " G "

My Foster Father, May He Rest in Peace ( He was an old fashioned Tool and Die maker !) used to tell me that accuracy was to get as close within limits as to what the real item was .Authenticity was getting it there ( 100% like a shrunk down real one ) but was often Not acheivable in miniature ! So , yes there is a difference according to the old , old , school . I don’t even try for anything close to Authentic .Accurate is good enough !

I found it hard to believe him till I got to doing commissions for lawyers .I had two shot down because of lack of Authenticity ( The Judges Words , Not Mine )

16

Ok, for clarification purposes on accuracy versus authenticity, where does this fit? It is the Hobbyboss TBF-1C Kit. Included in the box are markings for TBF Bu. No. 0380, 8-T-1, in June 1942, which was the sole survivor of the Midway detachment of Torpedo 8. The box art depicts this.

The TBF-1C had not even been created yet, Torpedo 8 flew initial production TBF-1s, which had some detail differences between them and later -1s. The -1C was different yet still. Is the model in the box accurate? From all reviews, acceptably so. Are the markings authentic? Yes, at least for a TBF-1. But when placed on a TBF-1C, is it accurate or authentic? I can bring up other similar examples of kits out there with similar gaffes. The basic kit may or may not be accurate. The kit markings may or may not be authentic. But sometimes they are paired up incorrectly, and then what does that make them? Inaccurate? Not authentic? Something else?

17

Both inaccurate and not authentic. Also probably the closest a kit will ever get to a TBF from Torpedo 8 at Midway.

18

Absolutely nothing to say to this thread…but Stik that is one nice kit and hope you have fun with it.

19

Nah, somebody did one in the magazine back in ‘94 using the Monogram kit, which is a -1. Back before we had the Accurate or Hobbyboss kits and the only TBF/TBM games in town in 1/48 were Monogram and Lindberg. It was a beautiful step by step article telling exactly what needs to be done to the Monogram kit. Got everything I need to do so in my stash, and will get around to it one day.

Drifter, I dont have the Hobbyboss kit in my stash. But I do have a couple of the Accurate Miniatures kits. Perhaps one day I’ll grab a Hobbyboss one as well. I do like that it has the wingfold option.

20

Stik,

I have to agree that the wingfold options is a big selling point. I am kicking myself for not buying the kit below at a local show about a year ago.

Image result for Accurate Miniatures kits TBF 1C Avenger

Related image

I do have this kit in my stash. I’ve been waiting for a special occasion to build it LOL. I will keep an eye for your build post when the time comes.