A new question on the “Jolly Roger”
- When was it first used?
- What was it first used on?
- What report was it first used on?
This is a serious question and is no joke, I have the answers to these questions.
Okay, before this gets outta hand…
ONE question at a time please. Go back and read the first part of the first post in this thread. The only people who should be asking questions here are those who have correctly answered the previous question.
The reason for this is simple… I’ve seen many similar threads on other forums where five guys are asking different questions and twenty guys are trying to answer those questions… all at once. This makes for a major clusterf**k and kills a thread real quick.
Thank you…
I have to make a correction to one part of the current question as well as clarify another part.
Firstly, question #5… due to an oversight on my part, I made a goof and asked for two USMC pilots who downed MiGs. There are in fact, three.
Question #4… Leading aces are usually those with the most kills, but I suppose the question as originally posed may not have been clear. So instead of asking for the ‘leading aces of the war’, perhaps I should have asked for the ‘aces with the most kills’.
I’ve edited the original questions to reflect these changes. My apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused…
Now, on to the two answers already submitted…
wibhi2, you have two of the questions totally correct, with others being partially correct. Also, one answer given contains all the correct information, but also contains extraneous stuff. This one is partially my fault, as I should have posed the question in a different manner.
Another thing… it is because of your answer that I realized my mistake on question #5. Thanks 2 much!
roadkill_275, you do have part six correct. Although a bit of FYI… Robin Olds did not fight in the Korean War.
Keep at it guys…
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Blackwolf,
#2 - Capt. Charles B. DeBellevue who had 6 kills.
#3 - Capt Jeffrey S. Feinstein and Capt. Richard S. Richie.
#6 - Col. Robin Olds -
Kurt
Blackwolf and all interested,
B-17E, 41-9043, was a 381st BG, 534th BS aircraft that had an accident (?) that killed all aboard as they were coming back from R&R. (Still looking for more details.)( I think that she was used to pick up the bodies after another aircraft had the accident.) She was originally flagged as GDA and known as Peggy D and then changed to Little Rock-ette. The records show that she was returned to the States on 10/29/45. My guess is she carried the A-1 code because there was an F model now carrying the GDA code. I seen to recall that I have an E model B-17 in my stash…hmmmm… Yeppers, got one. Now to convert it to a hack. I have a picture of the nose art (both) and the tail nimber and codes. Now for more research. Wonder if she carried any guns. OH, She was also used as a formation aircraft. 12 floodlamps, red stripes on NMF, and 56inch wheels.
Kurt
Kurt, you have #6 correct. The other two are not…
Back to that B-17… DAMN! I guess one should always go with their first instincts. When you asked that question about the unusual marking, I had seen the photo of ‘Little Rock-ette’ on the 381st BG site and thought that it was rather unusual, with the name behind the cockpit and the tapered strip going aft. I dismissed it though, and instead went for the radio relay ship. Later when I came across the A-1 tail code, the serial didn’t click… grrrrrrrr… LOL
Dunno if you came across the Known Aircraft Accidents page on the 381st site, but 41-9043 is listed as having had an accident on February 14th, 1945. No other details are given.
Man! I’ve been trying to figure out where I had seen those names before (I remember quite clearly doing a web search for ‘Little Rock-ette’) and why I hadn’t looked up either of them in the B-17 Nose Art Name Directory… I just hadn’t made the connection with the serial. I thought I was losing it…
Anyhoo, now that I’ve looked those names up, it seems that 41-9043 ‘Peggy D’ is listed as having belonged to no less than four groups! The 91st, 92nd, 97th and 381st. And the 381st ship is listed as being with the 535th BS, not the 534th. This is no biggie, though, because ships were often transferred from one squadron to another within a group.
I did an unsuccessful search for 41-9043 on the Aircraft Serial Number Search page, but there is a B-17 named ‘Peggy D’ from the 97th BG listed with the serial 41-9034. I think a few goofs have been made somewhere…
Here’s my take on the possible history of this ship… I think that 41-9043 was named ‘Peggy D’ and initially served with another group, or groups. (either the 91st or 97th BG, or both… these two groups were operational in England long before the 381st arrived) I think it was transferred to the 381st, possibly serving with the 535th BS and then the 534th BS. At some point the aircraft was declared war weary and stripped of armament and all paint. It was then utilized as a hack and named ‘Little Rock-ette’, remaining unpainted but for the national, unit and personal markings.
Although I’m more familiar with how fighter squadrons dealt with duplicate code letters, it seems to me that your idea of their simply adding the ‘-1’ after the ‘A’ to avoid confusion with another ship coded ‘A’ is quite sound and very probable.
Now, as to the question of the ship carrying guns. I’d say no. Hacks were usually unarmed and the photo from the 381st book shows no tail guns or waist guns. Also, the photo of ‘Little Rock-ette’ on the 381st site clearly shows the absence of the upper turret.
Thanks for sharing that bit of info… I was going nuts trying to figure out where I’d seen some of it before… but I ain’t that far gone yet and finally sorted it out! [:p]
EDIT: I was writing all this between the time you originally posted that bit of info and your edit… The possibility of this aircraft being used as an assembly ship had not crossed my mind, strangely. But now that you’ve mentioned it, I think I may have some photos of this aircraft as used for assembly duties… will have to grunge about some more…
Fade to Black…
Here’s a bit on that same subject… mostly about the making of a postage stamp… but it answers several points…
http://www.381st.org/stories_lloyd-stamp.html
she was unarmed, an assembly plane, and old and going out to pasture. (same SN and had the Peggy D and Rock-Ette names both)
Tom, thanks for that. I’d come across that page too… but my memory is failing me… [:(!]
Kurt… I’m going to keep my posts on this subject in this thread for the sake of continuity and to avoid having to jump back and forth between two threads.
Anyhoo, so far I haven’t come up with any additional photos of this ship. The photos you already have, from the 381st website and the one I took from the 381st book, seem to show just one tapered stripe on the fuselage. I see no evidence of other stripes, although we can’t see the nose, wings or other parts of the aircraft.
I dunno what the standard size wheels were for a B-17. Perhaps it changed at some point, I dunno. Will try to find out more or hopefully someone else knows fersher.
Fade to Black…
Steve,
I almost agree with you on some of the history. As a hack, she was still Peggy D and was OD over grey. She later (Feb 1944) was stripped of paint and made a formation aircraft. She had changed names before the paint was stripped. This is according to the maintenance records. (see the other post). Now to find some colored pictures of 381st BG bombers in OD over grey so that I can get an idea of the color of the markings. (I have that 381 BG book somewhere, but I can’t find it. )
The 41-9034 bomber listed in the Histories shows that it was shot down in France. If this is the same aircraft, it has an unusual history.
Kurt
Well, my version of 41-9043’s history was mostly guesswork, but I suppose it wasn’t bad guesswork. After looking around a bit I now think that I have absolutely no photos of this airplane other than the one I’ve already posted. Thought fersher I’d seen a B-17 with stripes…
Wibhi, tally on your revised answers:
- Missing one type
- Incorrect (Olds was not officially an ace during Vietnam)
- Half correct
- Correct (The Yanks weren’t doin’ ALL the shootin’… [;)])
- Partially correct (Remember, I’m looking for pilots, not RIOs. Also one aircraft variant listed is incorrect.)
- Correct
I’ll give this question until… Thursday… then we’ll call it a wrap and move on…
Fade to Black…
To all who have been following Little Rock-ette,
I found a better picture.
It seems this “hack” served many purposes. On story that I read, a crippled B-17G was returning and could not extend the gear. They did not have the tools to jettison the ball turret. The squadron CO flew Little Rock-ette in formation with the B-17G and with the use of a long rope passed the tools down to the crippled bird through the radio station window on top. The crew then jettisoned the ball and made a “safe” belly landing. The crippled bird was B-17G, 42-97214 “Carolina Queen” GD*B.
The picture of her with the body bags was another story about a crash on the Isle of Mann that took 31 lives. The Group CO flew her there to recover the bodies and brought them back to England.
I have found nothing on her war record.
Now to figure the colors of the “Triangle L” insignia.
Kurt
PUNT
It’s a short, high kick… comes down at the 35 yard line… a bounce or two and then it’s taken at the 30 and run across midfield… he’s at the 40… the 30… the 20… the 10… 5… OH!!! And he’s taken down at the 1 yard line… close but no cigar…
[:p]
Well, wibhi2 was close… but no cigar. You did get the two ‘tougher’ questions though…
Here’s the answers I was looking for:
1) Confirmed MiG kills were made by US aircrew aboard the following aircraft types: F-4, F-8, F-105, A-1, A-4 and B-52. There is at least one case of a probable kill by an F-100, but it is officially unconfirmed… I was not aware of the UH-1 incident.
2) Randall H. Cunningham was the first pilot ace of the war. (US pilot ace, that is…)
3) Richard S. Ritchie and his WSO Charles B. DeBellvue (who became the leading US ace in Vietnam) scored their first kill (credited as one kill to each) on May 10th, 1972… the same day Cunningham made his last kill, along with his RIO William P. Driscoll.
4) Nguyen Van Coc, Nguyen Hong Nhi, Pham Thanh Ngan and Mai Van Cuong are the leading aces of the war if you go by North Vietnamese records. Said records are viewed with skepticism by many, but until irrefutable evidence surfaces proving that those records are wrong, these four pilots will remain the leading aces of the war in the eyes of many, including myself.
5) Three Marine pilots scored kills during the war; two of them where serving as exchange pilots with the USAF…
Doyle Baker was assigned to the 13th TFS, 432nd TRW and flying an F-4D when he bagged a MiG-17 with an AIM-4D on 17 December, 1967.
Lawrence G. Richard got a MiG-21 with an AIM-7 on 12 August, 1972 while flying an F-4E with the 58th TFS, 432nd TRW.
Lee T. Lasseter, flying an F-4J of VMFA-333 knocked down a MiG-21 with an AIM-9G 11 September, 1972.
6) Robin Olds was an ace in WWII credited with 13 air to air kills and 11.5 on the ground. He was officially credited with 4 kills during the Vietnam War, including a double scored on 20 May, 1967.
Alrighty… I’ll come up with something a bit less involved this time 'round…
Fade to Black…
oh well…I was close and visted many a web site to gain this info. interesting research all around and fun facts to boot.
Tell you what wibhi, you were really only off by one bit of info so I’ll give you the next question…
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I have (had??) a wings magazine that tells of some of the more unusual kills of the Viet Nam war. One of the stories was about an O-1 that popped a MiG 17 with its marker rockets. Whether this is true or not I don’t know. There was also a story in there of F-102 pilots firing heat seeker missiles at enemy campfires until this practice was banned as impractical and expensive. Of course this could all be a part of my failing memory also.
Steve o reno - you are both a gentlemen and a scholar.
Otay…this should be relatively easy 3 parter on x planes
1.) What was the forerunner to the xp-59 and what year was it developed
2.) what were the similarities (in design) between the xp-59 and it’s forerunner
3.) Why was the program cancelled and redesignated with the same designation.
When you say XP-59, I’m going to assume you mean the original XP-59…
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The forerunner to the original Bell XP-59 was the Bell XP-52. The XP-52 was designed for a USAAC competition calling for a pursuit aircraft with superior visibility and heavy armament. Sources vary as to the year; some say 1939 and some say 1941. I’m inlcined to go with 1939 myself.
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The XP-52 and XP-59 were both twin-boomed pusher fighters powered by a single engine with two contra-rotating props.
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When the original XP-59 program was cancelled the XP-59 designation, with the addition of an ‘A’ suffix, was re-assigned to the new top-secret jet fighter developed by Bell as a security measure.
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The H-1 engagement was not a UH-1, it was an AH-1 and it didn’t shoot down the MiG, just scared the pants off of the MiG pilot, who bugged out. shameless plug The entire account is recorded in my book on the AH-1 from Osprey.
See !!! I told you it was easy. You hit it perfectly blackwolfe .
Now if someone would produce a kit of the 52/59
Shameless plugs are okay…
Okay, next question. Simple and perhaps easy for some…
The Russians used a number of US-built aircraft during WWII. One of their favorites was an aircraft which was given a nickname based on Russian slang that was used in reference to a task for which the aircraft in question was ideal.
What was the aircraft?
What was the aircraft’s nickname? (Russian and/or English will be accepted)
What was the task for which this aircraft was ideal?
What term did the Russians use to refer to this task? (English translation)
Fade to Black…