I’ve heard enough praise about Vallejo acrylics around here that I decided to give them a try on this latest build. I’ve used Tamiya acrylics some in the past but most of my painting/airbrushing was down with MM enamels. I’ve had to change a few habits and learn some new tricks and I thought I had a pretty good grip on things until yesterday. I think I know what I did wrong but I’d like to pick a few guru’s brains regarding these paints.
What happened:
Paint lifted in several spots when removing tape and is very soft. I can easily damage it by dragging a fingernail or tweezers across it.
What I did:
Painted a splinter camo scheme on a plane. Model was primed with Tamiya fine primer (all I had at the time). Paint was thinned with Vallejo airbrush thinner. I also added a drop of flow enhancer. Paint/thinner/enhancer drops ratio was 20/8/1. I have to paint outside and it was a bit chilly, upper 50s, but it was painted and brought inside to cure. I waited about 4 hours between color colors. The primer had been dry for weeks. It was masked with Tamiya tape.
Does Vallejo paint not dig Tamiya primer? -I have since bought some Vallejo primer btw.
Did I not wait long enough between coats before taping?
Is this paint just super easy to damage?
I really like the stuff. It goes down like silk, does not smell and covers well. I’m hoping I just broke an acrylic law or two and one of you guys can set me straight!
I have not had a problem with Vallejo sitting on Tamiya primer. It sounds to me that the paint did not cured before you pulled the tape. I always wait two days before I remove the tape. Acrylics dry from the outside to the inside where enamels dry from inside to the outside.
I had this problem a couple years ago when I started using Vallejo. To what you said, I might add that the paint had a ‘rubber-like’ feel. And yes, came off with fingernail as if it was only barely adhered to the substrate.
In my case, I think it was a combination of improper thinning (paint too thick) and laying it on too thick. And also embarrassingly trying to cover in one coat. [:$] In your case, I don’t think improper thinning is an issue though, based on the ratios you mentioned.
Since, I thin the Vallejo more and start with a light pass (to get a bite), and build it up from there.
Curious if you’re spraying Vallejo Model Air or Model Color?
Also, I’ve read from a couple of online sources that Vallejo sprays better at slightly higher pressures. This sounds counter intuitive for sure, but I do most of my Vallejo spraying around 21-24 PSI and it does seem to work for me.
My 2 cents, anyway. I don’t proclaim to be a Vallejo expert by any means. Just a beginner with a couple years with it under my belt really.
To echo what Greg brought up… I have heard; haven’t tried it for myself, but from what I understand, Vallejo Model Color does not like airbrushing, it was designed for hand brushing. Again, don’t take my word for it, these are just things that I have read on other threads here.
Greg, did the ones with the rubbery paint ever harden up or is it still fragile?
I’ve heard the same about Model Color. Several of the youtube videos about Vallejo products pointed out the differences as well. This was Model Air that I used. I used around 20 psi with multiple thin coats. I’m starting to suspect that the cooler weather combined with the flow enhancer (which may not have been needed) prevented the paint from drying between the thin coats and made it act like 1 thick coat and, as Marcus suggested, I didn’t let it cure long enough before taping it off.
One of the youtube builder’s videos mentioned spraying a light coat of Future on Vallejo paint as soon as it could be handled and that allowed it to be sanded as soon as the Future was dry. He could not explain how it worked but he started sanding a few minutes after spraying. That was interesting. Lots to learn about this stuff.
The rubbery feeling paint finally goes away, but it takes forever.
Now that we’ve determined that you are using Model Air, I’d have to say something is wrong indeed. Back when I was having the rubbery, fragile problem I was doing a lot of experimenting including mixing stuff that probably didn’t belong.
Another thought, at 20:8:1 (Model Air:Vallejo thinner:flow retarded), I wonder if the paint might be a little too thin? I’ve gone 4:1 Model Air:thinner, when I’ve gone 3:1, results are inconsistent at best.
Out of curiosity, have you tried spraying straight, unthinned? Maybe try a test and see how it compares. I shoot it un-thinned fairly regularly.
I’ve given up on mixing flow enhancer with Vallejo, at least for now. I agree that it might have contributed to the problem. I’ve never sprayed below 65 degrees, but I reckon the cold could have contributed too.
BTW, I use and like Vallejo primer. I’ve not yet had the opportunity to use it under Model Air and then mask. And I’ll test before I do that.
And try upping the PSI above 20, just see if it makes any difference. I’d say 25 max, 23 ideal. At least with my brushes.
Future is an interesting idea. Vallejo does not sand very well.
That depends on if you mean you put “one drop of Flow Aid” in your paint mixture before spraying,or if you mixed it 1 drop to 20 drops of water and then “put in one drop of the Flow Aid mixture” into your paint and thinner mix. If you are using it straight out of the bottle, you are using it at 20 times the strength it is designed to be used at.
If you didn’t use Flow Aid, then the directions would probably be different.
No need to apologize for helping! I’ll take all that I can get.
I did spray some straight out of the bottle as a test when I first got it back in the summer but it was way hot then and it seemed to be very grainy hence why I purchased the flow enhancer. Speaking of which, yes, I was adding a drop right out of the bottle. I was not aware it too had to be diluted so heavily. On the videos I watched they used it straight out of the bottle. They may have already premixed it and didn’t mention it. That could very well be a big part of the problem.
The ratio is a bit heavy on the thinner but it’s a Eduard kit and the moulded detail is nice but very shallow. I’m trying to be careful with paint build up.
It’s supposed to be in the 60s this weekend. I have a few more spots to paint (and touch up) so I’ll try it again Saturday. It will have dried for a week by then.
Thanks again!
Edit: I double checked the instructions on the airbrush flow enhancer and it recommend 1-2 drops per 10 drops of paint. Maybe they have different kinds.
I have used Vallejo primers, Model Air and Model Color. All of them have the worst adhesion of any paints I’ve ever used.
Even the Vallejo primer doesn’t bite the plastic surface; instead it forms a rubber-like coat on the surface. Thus, it can be lifted easily and cannot be sanded. My Vallejo primers are collecting dust.
Model Air sprays much worse than Tamiya & Testor acrylics even when I add a flow enhancer and a retarder.
I do use Model Color for paint-brushing. No acrylic paint hand-brushes better than Vallejo. But because of its poor adhesion, I get super careful till I apply a top coat.
I have also had adhesion problems with Model Color. I was so excited to find a really nice sandy color to use for a ‘bare wood’ base. I painted a propeller with it and after drying could easily scratch it right off with a fingernail. I scolded myself for skipping the primer step. I removed the paint and sprayed some spraypaint primer on and then repainted with the same result.
I have been using Vallejo paints for several years now, and have had a lot of paint lift on me. Along the way, I’ve found a few tricks that usually work for me. First off, I will echo what Chris said about their primer, a fabulous dust collector. I use AK Interactive white these days (their grey serms to clog my Aztek needles). It is workable. This said, I start with a light scuffing of my model, either with 1000 grit polish cloth or very fine Scotchbrite. When I’m applying Model Air (always through my airbrush) I work, as Greg said, around 20 to 25 psi. I move fast and light, in a few thin layers. As for thinning, I have found there seems to be no universal formula. Their light colours are very thin, their darker colours usually thicker, at least in my experience. For any pale shade, I normally only add one drop of thinner to a paint cup, if at all. For their darker shades, I might add a half as much thinner as I do paint. This part I play by eye, aiming for the consistency I find straight from a bottle of their white paint. Temperature and humidity seem to effect things for me at times, but not so much when I thin the paints very lightly. My last trick is with my masking tape. If I open a pack of Tamiya tape and leave it exposed to atmosphere for about 2 weeks, I find it far less tacky than a brand new roll, and this is what I prefer. I detack the tape (after being exposed to atmosphere) between 8 to 10 times on my wrist or forehead before applying it. My tape does not stick hard, but it covers. If I find it lifting, I use stcky tape over the de-tacked tape. This way I have a light bond to the paint. Lastly, of course, I paint with the tape edge, not against it. I have never used a flow aid or retarder. I find their thinner does that for me. I’ve had better luck with these techniques, not perfection, but better. I also try to leave any layer of paint 2 to 4 days before masking or handling or working over it, when I am patient enough to do so. Just my 2 cents, and I hope it helps.
i just base coated my 1/72 (the one true scale) JAGDTIGER with vallejo av dark yellow. it’s sitting now. seriously 2 days to cure the paint? i paint MMA or tamiya in the morning and silly putty camo in the afternoon with no problems. i do prime everything with ACE HARDWARE NOW gray primer.
I touched up the damaged spots yesterday afternoon. To add insult to injury the tape pulled up the paint around the area I was trying to fix and it had been sitting for a week! Even after sticking it to my forehead and jeans to de-tack it. Strangely, the light gray paint on the underside seemed to stick well but was still easily damaged when I rested the model on the side of the box.
I’m handling this thing with kid gloves until I can get some future on it. The major stuff is done so I’m painting the rest indoors since the smell is minimal (one of the advantages of acrylic paints). It now only rests on soft towels, is covered with a rag and I’ve pulled my fingernails off with lineman’s pliers in an attempt to prevent future damage.
The other thing I was thinking, CN, is the paint could be overthinned. I do find their paint easy to damage at times, but others it seems pretty solid. Maybe it was a reaction with the flow retarder? Being as I don’t use flow retarder, though do use their thinners, I suspect it is in the thinning ratio.
From their site:
5.4.I have read about the use of the Drying Retarder with Model Air, and also of the Airbrush Cleaner.
Some airbrush specialists use a few drops of these products or distilled water to improve the flow and delay slightly the need to interrupt the process of painting to clean the airbrush during use, but this may also affect the quality of the sprayed paint and is a question of practice and technique. The Airbrush Thinner 71.061(see above) is the most commonly used auxiliary product.
5.3. If I want to use a thinner, what product and in what proportion do you recommend?
Our airbrush specialists claim that a thinner is not necessary, but they consider it can be used up to a ratio of 1:3. The Vallejo Airbrush Thinner (Ref. 71.061) does not change the adherence or coverage of the Model Air colors , and delays the need for cleaning the airbrush.
Wayne, I’m not sure you HAVE to wait as long as I do, I suppose I tend towards the safe side, once bitten.
I’ve sprayed Vallejo primers and Model Air straight from the bottle. I’ve paint-brushed Model Color straight from the bottle. The result was always the same; Vallejo is more fragile than other paints I’ve used.
interesting hearing all these issues with vallejo. I use model air and vallejo primer a lot ( also a lot of ak interactive and ammo of mig) When I first started using it I had some issues with paint lifting. Once I changed my approach I haven’t had any problems since. I prime with vallejo, let that cure for at least 24hrs. Then I hit it with thin coats of model air, let that cure at least 24 hours again, then mask. I airbrush both straight out of the bottle at 25 to 40 psi. Works for me everytime
After reading through this thread, the question I have is, what is the upside to this paint? There are a lot of good paints out there. Is it really worth the trouble?
Vallejo paintbrushes extremely well and offers a lot of colors. It’s not that a few people have experienced problems with Vallejo. Poor adhesion of Vallejo is well-documented at other modeling sites. I know one can make Vallejo work and some people love it. But I prefer paints that just work. Also, since IPA, Windex and even Vallejo’s own cleaner don’t remove dried Vallejo paint, cleaning an airbrush can be tricky.
