I’m doing a 5th AF P40N and it’s going to need a white tail. (49th FG) Not sure if the white used would have been covered by the ANA (Army-Navy) agreements concerning colors. (Yes the Navy and Army cooperated on at least that - tough to believe.) My Robert Archer book on USAAF colors is in California and I’m in the Midwest, so no help. The USN “Insignia White” used in WWII is distinctly “off” - almost a light cream color. Sometime ago I did an Arii/Otaki Jug and put it in 5th AF colors and used Golden Titanium White which is white as snow. Since then I did a TBM with Atlantic dress with proper Insignia White and the two really do look different. In the real world it doesn’t matter, but as long as I’m here, might as well do it right. Any USAAF fans out there with advice?
Eric
A SWAG says Insignia White, as that would be the color most likely on hand in the unit paint stocks. But it would likely be of the early war AAF variety, as from Dana Bell’s books, the ANA colors did not become widely avaible until 1944.
Dana Bell shows that Insignia White, #46, is close to FS37855, or 37886 originally. Another thought is that the 5th AF used RAAF paint stocks just like the 8th used RAF paint stocks for some colors.
Thanks much. I can’t remember whether or not Archer has FS # or was content to let the ANA and USAAF paint samples do the work. Glad you’ve got a source. According to http://www.colorserver.net/ - a neat site that gives you a computer rendition of FS # paints - 37885 is not a valid number. 37886 is and looks spot on. Stockholm IPMS chart gives 37880 as USN Insignia White for 1942 till war’s end. The way FS works, numbers that close are pretty much the same - although 886 is a little less “off.” (Neither look “white.”) Wonder if someone might not be referring to 15th AF. 5th AF was based in New Guinea by mid-42. It’s true that the Aussies did get some RAF aircraft (Beaufighters were very valuable and a Spitfire Group appeared at Darwin in late 42) they were desperately putting together their own planes based on the Texan and, more seriously, receiving US Lend Lease planes: P-40s to start. That was pretty much a USAAF show. New Zealand flyers were adopted by the USN and got Corsairs in 1944. Aussies trumped that with the P-51 in early 45: think they even made some. (Ironically, some of the RAAF’s most successful pilots were the war’s leading P-40 aces - in North Africa. Gents like Caldwell were sent to fly the Spitfire V at Darwin and had problems at first.) 15th AF worked very closely with the RAF in the MTO.
Eric
Pick your favorite white and go to work sir 
Will do. But it will be “off” - if USN “Insignia White” was “off” and USAAF planes had insignias, and cooperated with the USN on basic colors, it follows that they had the same paint around.
Unless involved in contests I think many modelers are neurotic almost by definition. Some folk, for instance, will put on tiny masking tape straps on the rudder pedals or do other things to make their cockpits beastly complex. And how many people see the cockpit? Probably only the modeler. Nobody on the planet would know that if I painted the tail of the P40 regular white - I did it once on a P-47 - was not correctly colored. Or that most brand’s Olive Drab has too much green. But I will and at least I can see it.
Come up with another problem of my own making, but this one is a little more interesting. How to get the control surfaces - which were fabric - to show a different color than the metal adjoining. I’m thinking the control surfaces should be a little lighter, but also show some shade for the ribs. I’ve never gotten it right. Maybe this time.
Eric
Try preshading the ribs. Use a darker shade of the base color, or if it is a dark color, black. as the shade and then air brush the top color but go lightly over the shade. I do not know if it will work, but it just came to mind as I read this. Let me know if it does, since many WWII aircraft have fabric control surfaces.
I have done the doped control surfaces a different shade of OD on a few builds. Just enough to be noticable. Although 98% of the folks who see those builds never seem to notice… LOL! I agree on the OD shades. I usually prefer the browner hued OD paints. just my own personal preference. On one build I did a few years back, a Navy “tri color” I added some Gunze Off White to their White for the lower surface. I think it came out quite pleasing with a nice weathered appearance, although it probably did not match the color chip specs…But then again after weathering with washes and top coats the base color is usually altered anyways…
But on the subject of 5th AF aircraft, they were at the end of a long supply chain, and I would suspect they are gonna use who evers paint stocks are on hand- RAAF, USN, or USAAC/AAF pre war stocks…
Thinking of doing a variation on what is done by biplane fans who have to deal with ribbing seriously. After priming I’m going to hand paint brown (maybe black on the upper wings that will be OD) down the ribs and cover with masking tape. Then paint the control surfaces titanium white - which is really white. Then when spraying the base coat, remove the tape from the ribbing after the first pass. The second pass should leave a faint shading on the ribs and the control surface a little lighter than the metal. Or that’s the plan. If I wanted the control surfaces darker, I’d darken the area between the ribs and mask it - repeat the process. From looking at photos I’d say lighter is right, but it’s a play of light so depending on the angle it could actually look darker. Just as long as they don’t look the same - just a little off.
As for OD, it’s a good illustration of why earth tones drive you nuts. Archer has very good samples and his OD 41 is a khaki brown with a little “fugitive” green. (Stuff was made with black and ocher. The big question is how they made their blacks and their ochers - could be dead carbon or chromatic with a very slight green or blue tinge: all would interact differently with ocher which could be of several hues. There would be some fugitive green regardless. The same factors mean that grays almost always had a slight blue or green hue. A true neutral gray would probably have been made from carbon black.) Archer found several of the original paint chips employed (thousands were produced) for his samples. Archer claims only a handful of planes carried OD 613 (called for in February 43) because they were still using old stocks. (He said a few bombers made it over in the new color and that they were clearly a little lighter. OD 613 is the color used by Army Ground Forces for AFVs.) A few months later the Army decided to go for NMS. According to Archer it was here where the RAF paints came into play. Invasion stripes and anti-glare panels on NMS aircraft often used RAF stocks. The stripes that are usually shown in black were probably dark green or dark gray. (Archer is certain that there were no blue nosed Mustangs. Not one.) Anyhow, if you want to check it, OD 41 (according to IPMS) is FS23070 and OD 613 FS34084. Trouble is that computer monitors lie like bandits. On my screen both show green and I’d guess 613 to be darker. Fortunately the US had excellent color film at the time and there are thousands of photos of both AC and AFVs. I think photos clearly show that Archer is right - the stuff is a yellowish brown - Steve Zaloga quotes someone as saying AFV OD had the color of “pig dung.” Huge stakes here - right up there with world peace and the pursuit of happiness.
Eric
37855 certainly WAS a valid paint number at the time that Dana did his Air Force Colors book series
it might have been taken off the list with the 595B and later standards,but, it was a part of the A standard from 1968 to 1979 when his Volume I came out
the deal with FS Whites (37875)was that even though a “tinted color” was the spec for the USN, we were not authorized to add tints to the cans of White,which were an actual 37925 in color, which was a very bright White
also, up until at least 1965, the Air Force and the USN used different standards for their Red, White and Blue for the insignias,the Air Force used ANA Red, while the Navy used FS (this is according to the painting TO of each service at the time)
Rex
Well, I said that Colorserver doesn’t recognize 37885 - and so it doesn’t. However if you try FS37855 as you suggested, there’s an off white. (Should always cut and paste.) But FS37886 is there. The conversion chart at IPMS Stockholm gives only two calls for post war US aircraft whites - White 27875 which is very white and only slightly “off” and Airframe White FS37875 which is also decidedly whiter than the 37855, 37886 or the 37880 called for by IPMS as WWII era. Archer’s paints go until about 1950 and he does show newer whites and they’re less “off.” As the computer monitor isn’t reliable enough to swear by, I’ll simply conclude that WWII Insignia White was slightly off and postwar varieties less so. I’ll let some one with determination to figure out what the FS considers “white.” Every model paint I’ve checked with my Paint Assistant has a different FS value for what they call white. Vallejo XF White is listed as a match for FS 37875: their X2 is 17875 which look quite different on the Colorserver site. So we’ll put in a little buff like I did with the Avenger which matched Archer very well and go with it.
Thanks much.
Eric
here is the actual relationship between the Whites in FS 595A
you can see the off white colors of some of the colors, and the almost “pure white” of others
you also can see the difference in some of the 1xxxx, 2xxxx and 3xxxx chips of the “same” color
differences like this page were the norm for US military colors before 1984
you can tell which websites use actual 595 and 595A matches, by the fact that they include different RGB numbers,those which bash the colors together as GSA did in 1984 don’t give you any difference in color for each sheen,they are not correct for pre 1984 equipment
I matched all of my paint comparison chips up against three physical copies of 595A, so I don’t use “virtual chips” or virtual chip sites,we can’t lay our paint mixes up against a monitor and really tell if we have it or not
Rex