Basicly you have your three basic colors for use on German armor from 1943 onwards. Then you throw in variables of all sorts. And of course late war added variations from shortages, use of non standard stocks in occupied lands as replacements, etc. The possibilites increase for variation. But as long as you start from a reasonable point, and use good references, you can run from there with plausibility.
Looking closer, I THINK I see what people may have interpreted as light green on that Pz IV, but I see unfaded Dark Yellow, not green. Look at the inside of the hatch. That’s not faded. It matches the patches on the rear turret skirt where perhaps gear was stowed, or perhaps the lighter tan DY is bearing vestiges of an old, worn whitewash job? But I really cant see a light green there. I just don’t get it.
I stand firmly that there is NO light green on the Jagdtiger. The only green I see is on the exhaustt housings and that looks within the range of normal to me.
Great discussion though, and thanks for the cool photographs!
It may also be worth remembering that the JT may have suffered from an internal fire (the collapsed suspension may support this possibility) and the colour of the external paint may have been heat affected.
Not to highjack the thread but does anybody know where this picture was taken? This is just one I’ve never seen before.
According to this article: On 30 March 1945 a group of 1.Kp. Jagdtigers fought an American armored unit in Schwetzingen, near Heidelberg. Jagdtiger 131 was knocked out in the downtown area at about 200 meters range by a Sherman tank.
Thanks for the cool lino, Roy.
On that page there’s another Jagdtiger in color that definitely shows a Pz. Green coat of camo which is very much what you would expect for the correct tone of this paint.
OK, now remember folks, don’t shoot the messenger, I’m only relaying the info here, not the charter member of the cult. [li]
As I stated earlier, I believe it was the Kotzing PzIV color photo that kicked off this whole Lime Green craze. Many people have invested A LOT more time into researching this than I have, I’m still sitting on the fence, but I am listening to what they have to say. Please read the whole article, including the comments.
Gentlemen, I give you…Lime Green;
http://www.network54.com/Forum/110741/thread/1386009231/last-1388003257/View+Thread
A comment from Gary Kwan concerning the late war camo scheme on PzIV and Jagdtigers build at Nibelungenwerk;
“Some more Camo information about Nibelungenwerks can share.
When I make research of my PzIV J, I find one interesting color scheme from this factory.
Starting from late Dec 1944, both PZ IV and Jagdtiger were also using RAL8017 Rotbraun as the base color over the vehicles first and then applied RAL7028 Dunkelgelb and RAL6003 Olivgrun.
I can’t 100% sure is it all panzers from Nibelungenwerks were using Rotbraun color base or not, but at least Pz IV J and Jagdtiger were in this scheme.”
Thanks for that!!! I’ve got a Jagdtiger and have been thinking how to build it, now I have any idea thanks to you. I ever already have the building.
Something else to think about. While I was looking at the pictures of the Jagdtiger I saw it was knocked out in 1945. I have the Ammo Mig set Late German Camouflages set and it does incule a “lime green”. It’s rally a lighter color from the Resedgrun RAL6011, in fact all the colors in the set are much lighter and different than the early and mid war sets.
Just to throw another wrench into the gears, take a look at this runner, a late Hummel, (ex Fort Knox), rebuilt at WTD 41 in Trier;
Now, before everyone throws up over the garish paint, keep in mind this scheme gets the official stamp of approval from none other than Hilary L Doyle. Please acquaint yourself with exposed red primer on 50% of the vehicle. Kinda flips the dominate paradigm on it’s head, now doesn’t it?
By extension, this confirms the accuracy of these other well-known and much maligned repaints;
Now, I’ve been extremely sceptical as to the validity of the whole “exposed red primer” craze that has been sweeping the field, but I’m starting to modify my views. If Hilary Doyle says this is 100% the real deal, that’s good enough for me. Also note that the color white has been introduced into the mix. This isn’t the temporary winter white-wash, but permanent white paint.
Quoting Mr Doyle, please note that this also pertains to the Kotzing Panzer IV and Panther as well;
"There is a lot of documentary evidence, orders, monthly technical bulletins etc. that shows the evolution of the camouflage standards for the period in question. Tom Jentz and I have spent years collecting these documents for our planned Panzer Tracts book about German Camouflage colour.
A brief summary of the of the main points:
In September 1944 assembly firms were ordered to paint camouflage patterns on vehicles prior to delivery. A later instruction was to paint vehicles in a thin coat of Grundierfarbe Rot RAL 8012 (Red primer undercoat) and then to apply well-thinned stripes and patches, with sharp outlines, of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 and Gruen RAL 6003 over approximately 50% of the surface.
Modifications were authorised for the winter of 1944/45, the period that the Hummel was assembled. White was introduced and the amount of dark green reduced and confined to lower areas. At some assembly plants the dark green was eliminated altogether.
We are very lucky that there are a numbers of period colour photographs that show these schemes. Some of the clearest being of Jagdpanzer 38t and Jagdpanther when they arrived in APG. However, the ones I liked best where reproduced in this Forum about five years ago (perhaps some member has recorded the thread). These where photographs of a Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf.J, Panther Ausf.G and Sd.Kfz.251/9 abandoned in the village of Koetzing at the end of the War and show this evolution the camouflage paint. The Pz.Kpfw. IV Ausf.J has the same scheme as the WTS Hummel, the Panther Ausf.G still has the Dunkelgelb and Gruen over the basecoat of red undercoat and for contrast the older Sd.Kfz.251/9 is in the classic Dunkelgelb basecoat over sprayed with green and brown.
While a great deal of research as gone into matching the colours used during the War, in my opinion, it is difficult to reproduce the exact look and feel of the Wartime finish because of our modern synthetic eco-friendly paints. It amazes me how thin and matt the cover was on German wartime vehicles using paints that are considered poisonous by todays standards."
Hilary Louis Doyle
We still have much to learn about this topic. It isn’t merely a matter of 3 colors, a bucket and a mop. The true situation is far more complicated. I hope Mr Doyle manages to finish the long-awaited tome on German camouflage that he and the late Mr Jentz have labored so long to complete, then maybe we can put this topic to rest…
That’s some crazy cat spots on that tiger. That color on the jagpanzer could it possibly be dunkergelb 1943 which was there new color dark yellow with a green tone in it ?
I also have seen that brite yellow green color being used as panzer olivgrun.
I have also seen it on ww2 Luftwaffe kits and SS camo patterns its really bright.
I’m in total agreement about the whole primer-red plus white thing alleged and shown in those photos, IZxion. I have no problem with that. I have had the fortunate opportunity to see the original paint and markings of the Stug III-G which used to (may still?) reside at the Fort Knox Museum of Armor, where the fabled "Panther II used Tobias well. I got to climb in it and around it, and extensively photographed the interior and all the primer red parts and cameo applied to it. A most illuminating day, back in the late 80s.
That model in the link is certainly beautifully-rendered and I can’t critique it–if the author believed that there was a green component to the finish of the actual PZ IV, who am I to argue with his interpretation. But I didn’T see it in the photo. What I saw was a mostly Dark Yelolow tank which was photographed at a rather oblique angle in late-afternoon setting, where the “dark” yellow patches are what are being called “light green” and the lighter, grayish/white parts are probably the remnants of some worn whitewash scheme from winter. I think that there’s room to argue that the darker yellow pieces could have been simply either left as yellow, and are therefore in-altered, or that they were blocked from whitewash coverage by gear packs or even tank tools and fittings.
I would be willing to risk my reputation on the assertion that there is NO “light green” on that Jagdtiger, but only Dark Yellow altered by some natural proccess and misinterpreted in the shade of the photo.
I think though, at some point, we have to step back from an “evidential” basis for this question and ask ourselves something more common-sense. Is it more likely that the “light green” is indeed a misreading of what is essentially dark Yellow (with only perhaps a light spraying of Panzer Green “filter” in some small places and on some rare, isolated examples) or a brand new revelation of some hitherto-undiscovered occurance of this new stage of “lime green” painting which could justify its use on almost any late war panzer, as has been seen to be the trend in some modeling circles as of late?
Again, not trying to discourage artistic license or bold experimentation, but I don’t think that this new light green craze has much historical evidence to back it up. [:)]
I also agree that that is dark yellow on the panzer 4 I wouldn’t think a soldier during that time would paint the inside of a armored door with the camo paint that would be shut up during battle.
Without talking with the persons who put the paint on it. Its all guess work.
As we all know some things never get resolved and just continues on as debates.
Either way its a great topic and depending on wich side of the fence your on it opens up more model options.
Thylacine…I have never built a model that big 
whish I could help but I havent clue how much paint that would take. Sorry
Karl, I don’t think this green paint is anything different than good ol’ RAL 6003, it’s just that it’s appearance is possibly different. Possibly a poor dilution ratio, mixed with other paint, another paint was substituted, bad photography, we just don’t know. It’s just that some people, myself included, think it looks different. Others have commented that they see an odd-looking concrete grey shade of Dunkelgelb on the JT and no real yellow at all, others see black paint here too. I don’t know what the grey is, burned something else, zinc phosphate, a grungy-grey shade of Dunkelgelb, who knows? For years it has been stated that there was only one Dunkelgelb, and yet we now know this is not true. We probably can never know exactly what happend in the chaos of the closing stages of the war. Perhaps this is a fluke, we really don’t have enough evidence to make any sort of definitive judgement. I’m sort of playing devil’s advocate here and bringing some of the more obscure aspects of this topic to the light of day, just for purposes of discussion.
I know I was unaware of the order that Mr Doyle presented concerning the paint schemes found on these vehicles. Sure, everyone by now has heard of the statements made by Mr Jentz which gave rise to the whole exposed red primer being visible, but how many folks has seen it spelled out in this fashion;
“In September 1944 assembly firms were ordered to paint camouflage patterns on vehicles prior to delivery. A later instruction was to paint vehicles in a thin coat of Grundierfarbe Rot RAL 8012 (Red primer undercoat) and then to apply well-thinned stripes and patches, with sharp outlines, of Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 and Gruen RAL 6003 over approximately 50% of the surface.” (italics mine). Mr Doyle continues with the addition of white paint to the scheme. Not to blow my own horn, but I have nearly 500 books on German armor and WWII, not one of them states the use of white paint on exterior surfaces. White-wash, sure, but not white paint. Some folks even talk of exterior Elfenbein being used…Prominent, well-respected experts in the field folks…
These red/yellow/white and +/- green vehicles that I just posted are still considered heresy by a great number of people in this hobby.
While I agree that this whole lime green craze lacks substantial evidence, I think we should remain open to the idea that stranger things have happened. Look at the fact that we didn’t even know the Leibermuster camo uniforms were actually issued until photos surfaced a couple of years ago. One more oddity I’ll throw in, take a look at this 4-toned Grille, what is the fourth color?
Thanks for taking the time to respond to my rant. It’s really just an exercise in speculation. Like I said, you won’t see my panzers in Key Lime pie any time soon.
Thank you for the post about that one grundierfarbe I had no idea that was used as a base coat.
In my studies I have came across photos of late war tanks that was confusing.
I thought it was a over use of rotbroun there red/brown mix. So thanks again.
Do you know of any info sites on the leibermuster camo. I’m also interested in ww2 uniforms ? I may know it by another name or not at all.
Blackdog62, I think this was the thread on missing-lynx, but all the links are now dead;
I think I saved the images on my external HD, but my filing system leaves much to be desired. I’ll see if I can find and post them. ML’s less than optimized search engine will bring back several returns for leibermuster if you want to wade through the chaff.
I’ll be back…
Well, I’ve thoroughly hijacked this thread, but it’s a 7 year old zombie, so I don’t care…[6]
Here are two of the Leibermuster photos, taken in Czechoslovakia at the end of the war;
OK thank you that is modern looking camo. Would be nice to see that in color Just so happened I just seen this a few days ago a different pic. Just can’t remember where.
Thank you for diging it up and posting it. I never understood wy america didn’t use more camouflage.
Ixion, I enjoy the back-n-forth; I think these discussions are fun and open the mind to new possibilities and realities.
i have to say that I have one softcover book that has made mention of white being used as a camo color, I believe attributing it to tanks manufactured in Czechoslovakia at the time? Maybe it just mentioned that some Hetzers were SEEN in 4-color including white, which we know happened…
i never saw that camp before, and that Bison in the 4-color. Pretty provocative…