"We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commander’s won’t allow them to write [cnsod] on their aeroplanes. Because, ‘it’s obscene’ ".
I think I am supposed to know that quote, Stik. But, those two brain cells aren’t active at the moment. Who was that? (I can guess the era, because of aeroplanes)
It’s from the end of Apocalypse Now… the last transmission of Col Kurtz just before his final demise. I think it perfectly sums up the hypocrisy of high command regarding such things.
Ah,it has been quite a while since I watched that last. I am currently part way through WW II again, on “A Bridge Too Far”. Going to be a while before I get to Vietnam and DS again. (All of the Victory at Sea episodes are still to go)
I have a new friend here (former FFG type) that we have weekly movie nights watching older movies and enjoying some refreshing beverages while the kids and wives do their thing. Quite enjoyable. We watched The Sand Pebbles and The Wind And The Lion for our last viewing.
I always liked that passage. Pretty much sums it, doesn’t it?
True, I would say the vast majority of fighter pilots were just doing what they could do to bring the enemy down. There was an extremely small minority who were actually crack shots and might be able to differentiate pilot vs. plane. Marseille apparently was one of them. Numerous kills with one 20mm roung into the engine block. A human gun sight computer, if you will. Hartmann was another, though he was big on just getting in extremely close, below and behind and blasting away.
Yes, a pilot has to get in pretty close to be able to place his fire at a specific point of his target aircraft as opposed to just shooting at the whole aircraft silhouette. There is a well known piece of German gun camera footage of a rear attack on a B-17 where the pilot gets closer and closer and his fire gets more specific into each engine as he closes. I’m sure most folks here have seen it.
Shooting a pilot in a parachute or other air crewman, like from a bomber, is against the law of war and is a crime. Now paratroopers are a different topic. They are combatants and can be shot while parachuting down from an airplane.
Air crew parachuting from a destroyed have certain protections afforded them by the Geneva Convention. They are to be given a chance to surrender to ground forces.
Bottom line, paratroopers are open season; you can fire machine guns, flak etc. at them. Air crewmen are not.
Seeing as the discussion is primarily talking about WW2, this only became a war crime in 1949, during WW2, it was not against the rules of war.
At the start of WW2, the idea was considered unchivalrous by many on both sides. Goering once asked Galland his view on the matter, to which Galland replied “I should regard it as murder, Herr Reichsmarschall. I should do everything in my power to disobey such an order”. To which Goering responded with “That is just the reply I had expected from you, Galland”.
But while it was frond upon, it of course did happen, but at the time, it was considered bad sport, but not illegal.
Further commentary on the subject if anybody finds themselves interested.
shoot at center of mass, just like self defense shooting. on a fighter that’s the wing root into the fuselage which just happens to be where the pilot is.
Convert plane to scrap metal, if pilot gets tagged in process, that’s the luck of war. If pilot leaves plane, he gets to live to fight another day. Going after a heavy, take out the gunners, just like a flak suppression mission before killing the plane. View that as self defense. If bomber crew bails, they get to live to fight another day. I can agree that if I observe a pilot not playing nice, he gets singled out for the same treatment he is dishing out.
John
In the savagery of war, and not being a pilot, my moral compass swings to let him ride to maybe fight another day Von Richtofen allowed enemy aircraft and crews a pass if thier guns jammed or ran out of ammo, it’s only “sporting” but if the swinging pilot was shooting with his service weapon well, a bullet is a bullet and ANYBODY can make a “one in a million” shot. Odd that it’s ok to shoot paratroops but not pilots. A humorus twist, would we wait for a deer or bear to arm themselves before we made sausage or burger out of them?
If you think about it…paratroopers vs pilots bailing out is not that odd. See previous explanations in this thread or the link I posted.
Ain’t no thing to stay away from bears I hope I never see on while I’m out hunting. Deer are just plain delicious.
When I was in the police academy, I was taught to shoot for center mass. In a warbird, that’s where the pilot is.
The pilot can’t kill you; the plane can…
,and remember to wrap some ammo belts around some of the bombs to provide plenty of shrapnel
Was that ammo belt for more shrapnel really done?
Yes, it was,photos are in various books showing Marines loading planes,and in some South Vietnam photos of T-28s and the like.
Rex
(not an apology, just an explanation, but, knowing what did and will again happen to any landing craft full of Marines steaming for the beach, I am fairly comfortable with my stance on this topic)
You shoot to destroy the pilot & his machine. It’s the pilot that makes the machine do it’s job. Once you take out the pilot, he can’t come back with another machine to continue his mission.
That’s the same as saying “the person doesn’t kill; the gun does.” Baloney!