What do you consider to be the best...?

If you were asked to give the best two or three of each of the fighters and bombers of WW2 from the major combatants [ GB USA France USSR Germany Italy] what would be on your list. The best refering to >>> all round performance, usefulness, length of service, numbers produced & impact they made in the conflict.

Thinking if someone were to make a collection of only the very best in model form what would you end up with. Opinions welcome.[;)]

Also what would you consider to be the weirdest and worst ever designs produced in WW2?[tdn]

Once more into the breach dear friends…

Best fighters…

Air to air: Fw190D9

Air to Ground: P-47D

Escort: P-51D

I’ve got several of each built, although they’re in storage in NY. Good stuff!

Best fighters:

  1. Mitsubishi Zero
  2. F4U Corsair
  3. British Spitfire VIII
  4. Focke-Wulf 190
  5. Messerschmidt Bf-109F
  6. P-51 Mustang
  7. The Russian Lawotschkin La-7 (made one of the first Me-262 kills)
  8. The Me-262, bomber-destroyer version.

Bombers:

  1. B-17
  2. B-24
  3. B-29
  4. Avro Lancaster
  5. DeHaviland Mosquito
  6. North American B-25
  7. Heinkel He-111(extermely versitile)
  8. Heinkel He-177 (radical twin-prop, four-engine design, rated as excellent by British analysts in post-war evaluations)
  9. Junkers JU-88 (most versitile design the Germans had)
  10. Fairey Swordfish (helped sink the Bismark)
  11. Dauntless SBD
  12. Grumman TBF
  13. Curtiss SB2-C (sank more Japanese shipping then the SBD’s)
  14. The Japanese Aichi D3A “Val”
  15. The Japanese Nakajima B5N “Kate” torpedo bomber

There is some controversy regarding the He-177, like the typical barb about the engines overheating, but remember the early B-29’s literally had a “fire watch” for the same reason!

Vichy France had the Dewtone, but it was mainly effective for defensive use, as a Hawker Hurricane"look-alike", tending to make kills by catching allied pilots off-guard, not because of performance.

Russia had some impressive ground-attack aircraft, but their best bomber was a reverse-engineered copy of our B-29

Japan’s “best” bomber, the Mitsubishi Betty, was considered a “flying gas-can” by its crews and American gunners alike, so it can go either way.

For worst, I can do a seperate post.

Tom T [C):-)]

The Military Channel had just these types of shows. They are still airing so watch your schedule for:

  1. Top Ten Fighters

  2. Top Ten Bombers

If you’re talking about WWII, the best all around fighter was the P51 Mustang. The Best Bomber was the B-17 for the American forces.

For the Allies, it came to being the Spitfire and the Lancaster Bomber.

These choices took into effect other things besides performance such as reliability, easy maintenance, fear factor, length of service, etc.

For the “wierdest”…well, I think the most un-appreciated fighter the US had was the P-61 Black Widow night fighter. It was a 3 man heavily armed night fighter with four 50 caliber machine guns on a top turrent and four 20 mm cannons mounted on the sides with a radar nose. It looked like an oversized P38. A real killer.

Worst:

  1. The Bacham Natter-did it ever really work? The pilot had to aim the warhead nose at the allied bomber, release the manned portion from the warhead by ejecting a parachute from its rear, hoping the slow-down shock would jerk him out of his seat where he would parachute down himself…well, you get the picture.
  2. The Mitsubishi Betty Bomber with the Ohka manned flying bomb-the worst combination imaginable-a “flying gas can” with an experimental flying suicide bomb that had very limited manuverability in flight.
  3. The Me-262 with the German BK-5 50mm Cannon. The cannon tended to destroy this aircraft’s flight characteristics.
  4. The Me-163 Komet-These have virtually no flight duration, had to glide back after running out of fuel,and many pilots were reduced to hydrogen peroxide vapors when they blew up on take-off.

Amongst the weirdest, I would vote for the Heinkel Zwilling, the five-engined monster created by connecting two 111’s with a common wing, but leaving the tailplanes seperate. Without connecting the tails, I can see a lot of flexing/torsion between the fuselages wreaking havoc with elevator and rudder controls.

Tom T [C):-)]

For the Pacific/CBI front, I would add P-40 and Hellcat fighters.

Difficult to list them all, but for me the DeHavilland Mosquito is right up at the top: it had a great combination of speed, firepower and mission adaptability. Only trouble is, what list am I going to put it into? Fighter, Bomber, reccon…it did a bit of everything! Gotta love a bird like that!

Hawker Typhoon and Bristol Beaufighter are also contenders for places in my “best” air force.

Yes, Mac, the P-61was a victum of its own prominance. In post-war interviews with Luftwaffe commanders, they told Allied interrogators that once the P-61’s appeared they basically “gave up the ghost”. They felt it was useless fighting them. Did you know that in fact it was based on a British design? [;)]

Tom T [C):-)]

I would have to say that the best all-around fighter of the E.T.O. would have to be the P-51 Mustang.

In the P.T.O., I would have to say the F6F and F4u are the best.

As for bombers, the B-17 is DEFINITELY the best of the ETO.

In the PTO, It’d have to be several: the SBD, TBF/M, B-25, A-20, and B-29.

also, th wierdest (and coolest) aircraft in my opinion is the P-55 Ascender.

(this is just american A/C, I might post later with other ones.)

I had read somewhere that the US and the UK had collaborated on the P61 with the UK’s expertise in the radar. I hadn’t read anything else. Was it from a production design or bluprints?

This is a tough question because you need to take into account the time period and role for the aircraft. Early on in the war in the Pacific, the A6M2 Zero was the dominant fighter and was clearly better than anything it faced. It’s achilles heel was speed though. It lost manueverablility very quickly over 200 mph, so it’s superb dog fighting ability could be negated with boom and zoom tactics from Allied fighters, which soon surpassed the Zero in quality.

Another factor is pilot quality. The Japanese Navy probably had the best cadre or pilots in the world in 1941, but the squandered them away and never developed a good wartime training program. The UK and US put into place the best training programs in the world and by 1943, the average quality of their pilots were vastly superior to the average from any nation they faced. By 1944, an American fighter pilot in a P-40 had a good chance of beating almost any Japanese fighter pilot he faced because he had much more throrough training and the quality of Japanese pilots had deteriorated significantly.

Modelers probably go more for fame of an aircraft than its abilities. The Me-262 is a very popular subject. It did cause a lot of fear in Allied airmen when it appeared, but it was a very touchy aircraft with 1st generation jet engines which was not reliable and had a very short lifespan. It also required a highly trained pilot to fly it, which limited the deployment. There were few Me-262 bases, which were quickly identified by the Allies and there were always swarms of Allied fighters lurking around these bases, which made landing and take off a very risky thing.

Some aircraft are also popular due to some specific event or a reputation held by airmen which may not have been true. The B-17 was very popular with the 8th Air Force and has gone down in history as a great bomber. It had shorter range and a smaller bomb load than the B-24. In operations in Europe, the impression was that the B-17 was a tougher airplane than the B-24, but actual records of how many of each aircraft type were lost vs. number of sorties is about the same. B-24s did make up the bulk of heavies flying out of Italy and because of their range, they often made deeper penetration missions than the B-17s.

Because the B-24 had better characteristics, and was a newer design, the government ordered more of them. The B-24 was the most built US combat aircraft of the war.

Having climbed around in both aircraft and had a chance to ride in a B-24 once, the B-17 gives me more of an impression of solidity. My father flew in both during the war (as well as quite a few other aircraft) and he said he had the most confidence in the B-17.

All that said, my attempt at a list with roles:
US:
Best fighter - Europe
Escort - P-51
Ground attack - P-47
Best fighter - Pacific
Carrier - F6F
Land based - F4U (as pure fighter) + P-38 (range and fire power)

The P-38 was a failure in Europe largely because the turbos were very touchy in cold and damp conditions. The P-61 was the only purpose built night fighter the Allies had and it served this role quite well.

Best bomber - Europe:
Heavy - B-17 and B-24
Medium - B-26, late war A-26

Best bomber - Pacific:
Heavy - B-24, late war B-29
Medium - B-25 (the B-25 had much better poor field performance than the B-26 which is why most B-25s were sent to the Pacific and all B-26s except for some early ones were sent to Europe)
Carrier - SBD early war, TBF/TBM mid-war, SB2C Helldiver late war (the Helldiver had a terrible reputation because of all its teething problems, but was vastly improved by the end of the war and surpassed the TBF in performance)
Anti shipping (land based) - B-25

UK (the British used a lot of American aircraft, some of which were much better than indigineous designs, but I will concentrate on UK designs)
Fighter - Spitfire early war (though the Hurricane did far better in the Battle of Britain than most people give it credit), late war is harder to say since the USAAF was dominating and the Spitfire had too short a range to get into the biggest air battles.
Ground attack - Typhoon, though the Hurricane did well in this role too.
Heavy bomber - Lancaster
Anti shipping - Mosquito and Beaufighters tag teamed in this role and both were good at it.
Night fighter - Early Beaufighter, late Mosquito
Special purpose bomber - Mosquito

USSR (the Russians used a huge number of US and UK aircraft, the fact that they thought the P-39 was a great fighter says something about their indiginous fighter designs. Some of their aircraft were worth a mention though)
Fighter - MiG-3 was a high altitude fighter that gave the Germans fits at higher altitudes, though they suffered at lower altitudes where most of the fighting was.

Ground attack - IL-2 Sturmovik was the only purpose built ground attack plane the Allies had. The Russians built thousands of them. The actual totals built are unknown, but they were almost certainly built in enough numbers to rank as the #1 built combat aircraft of WW II. They were very heavily armored, which made them a tough target to shoot down. Even at that, the Russian production lines had trouble making enough to make up for losses in 1943 and early 1944.

Japan
Carrier fighter - A6M Zero.
Land based fighter - A6M Zero early war, late war had many good designs which didn’t live up to their potential because the pool of pilots had deteriorated too much. Among the late war fighters worth note are the George, Raiden, and Frank. In the middle years of the war, probably the best Army fighter was the Ki-61/Ki-100 Tony.

Cairrier based bomber - Early - Kate, later - Jill.

Land based bomber - Betty

Long range recon - Emily flying boat

Floatplane fighter - George

Italy - Italian industry was not prepared for war. Their engines produced less power than most other nations and they lagged behind most of the rest of the world in airframe design. The Sm.79, though an ungainly looking beast with three engines did perform well as a torpedo bomber against British convoys in the Med. Italian aircraft are becoming more popular as a modeling subject because they have interesting paint jobs.

Germany
Fighter - Early Me-109, mid war - Fw-190, late war is debatable, in piston engine aircraft the Fw-190D and Ta-152 were the best. Though they might have been bested by some of the designs that were in development at the end. The Me-262 is the ultimate boom and zoom fighter of the war, but it suffered from a lot of bugs that were never worked out.

Night fighter - He-219 was the best to see operation, though politics kept the number to see combat small. The Ju-88 and Me-110 did most of the night fighting work.

Medium bomber - Ju-88

Heavy bomber - Germany never put much resources into heavy bombers. Virtually all were used for long range anti shipping in the Atlantic. Early in the war, the Fw-200 was probably the best they had, though it being an airliner by design, the stresses of war duty caused a lot of airframe failures. The He-177 was the only purpose built heavy to see regular production, but engine fires and a lack of a fire wall on the engines resulted in a lot of losses due to operational accidents.

Ground attack - Early - Ju-87 Stuka, later is open to a lot of debate. The most used ground attack plane in the latter years of the war were Fw-190s. The Hs-129 deserves special mention as the only purpose designed tank killer prior to the A-10. Though is was not built in large numbers and did not capture a lot of headlines with its service.

Germany is also notable for a lot of what people have labled “Luft 46” aircraft. There were quite a few aircraft types on limited production, in the prototype stage, or on the drawing boards at the end of the war. The He-162 was not the easy to fly Volksjagder that Hitler wanted, but it was a pretty decent airplane. The Do-335 would have been the ultimate piston engined fighter bomber. The Ar-234 was the first jet bomber and though mostly used for recon, was a good airplane, when they didn’t have engine problems. The Russians plagerized some of the x plane designs on the drawing boards. The first generation Russian fighters were essentially German designs.

As far as weirdest and worst, that’s an entirely different topic. I do have a book on some of the weirdest and unusual aircraft designs. Few ever made it past the prototype stage. If that.

Bill

Oh well, my 2cents BEST:

Fighters:

GB: Spitfire, Tempest USA: P-51 Germany: Fw190D, Me262

Bombers:

USA: B17, B29, B24, B25 Germany: Junkers 88

Ground Attack: GB: Typhoon USA: P47 Germany: Stuka USSR: Sturmovik

[2c]

ETO

Fighter

Allies: P51D

Axis: FW 190D

Ground Attack

Allies: Sturmovick

Axis: JU 87

Bomber

Allies: Mosquito

Axis: JU 88

PTO & CBI

Fighter

Allies: F4U

Axis: A6M

Ground Attack

Allies: Beaufighter

Axis: none to mention

Bomber

Allies: B25 Mitchell

Axis: none, all were flying Zippos!

Now for the most important…I will also add the PBY for all theatres…not an attack plane or a bomber in the truest sense, but where would the allies have been without that airplane?

Another achilles heel on the Zero was the combination of unarmored fuel tanks and a largely magnesium construction. It was pretty much all over if a bullet found a fuel tank on a zero and the Japanese pilot had to bail out faster than the magnesium could burn up.

As for the P-39, I must say that it always bothers me to hear people slamming that plane. The only way it was a failure is that it didn’t do what the U.S. wanted it to do. It was designed to meet a high altitude interceptor requirement, but it proved slugish up high. It was found out quite quickly, however, that it was a real hot rod down in the weeds. If you read Chuck Yeager’s biography, he talks a lot about it and the time he spent flying them, made it sound like a real blast to fly one down low.

The Russians used them in low altitude to supplement the Sturmoviks and that why they liked them so much, they used them where they performed best.

The Russian built fighters were nothing to be laughed at, The Yakovlev and Lavochin designs that made up the backbone of the air to air battle with the Luftwaffe were very respected and feared by the Germans.

I don’t know about the MiG-3, from all I’ve heard and read about it, the thing it did best was fly at high speeds in straight lines at high altitude and eventually found its place more as a photo reccon bird than a fighter.

The Russians also had the Petlyakov Pe-2 and Pe-3 medium bombers, which they used much the same as the British used the Mosquito. Both were very high speed and very adaptable aircraft which did far more than they were ever intended to do. I would probably put them on my list somewhere as well.

A candidate for the weirdest:

It never made it into combat, but during WWII, the Navy was experimenting with something called the “flying flapjack”. It was a saucer shaped fighter with two props designed for very short takeoff requirements. Can’t remember the real name or call letters.

All of the Spitfire’s

best /worst

i don’t know

i will say this even though the p51 was considered the best by so so many and the p40 was considered a dog by so many

give me a some top pilots in a squadron of p40’s over a squadron of so-so or avg pilots in the p51’s anyday

from the( roughly) middle of the war on the axis powers had lost a major chunk of their best pilots leaving rookies up there and most (not all) of the planes that are being quoted here are or came into their prime at the same time when we (allies) had not lost as many aces and our #'s of exp. pilots were increasing

i am just being a bit of the devils advocate here just to add some spice too this post

Just imho.

best Alied fighter. P51 mustang (great all rounder)

best Axis fighter, FW190 (as above)

best Alied heavy bomber, Avro Lancaster (tons on target and adaptability)

best Axis heavy bomber, HE111 (due to lack of any other real contenders size wise)

best Allied medium bomber, de Havilland Mosquito, (the first true multi role combat aircraft)

best Axis medium bomber, JU88 (good all rounder and adaptability)

wierdest design?? Bachem Natter

theory = verticle launch, fire at bombers with rockets, aim nose at bomber stream and eject / release tail section to parachute down and be re-used

in practice = verticle launch and kills pilot.!!! no onder they only did one live piloted launch. followed by one dead piloted crash i suppose.

all the best.

Greg

True. Most Japanese pilots flew without parachutes, even though they were issued. So a lot of Japanese fighter pilots went in with their aircraft.

I don’t recall what Chuck Yeager said about the P-39, but then I read the book over 20 years ago, so my memory is foggy. I have read that the P-39 had some rather nasty characteristics like very poor spin recovery and a tendency to go into a spin while dog fighting. A good pilot would be able to over come these, but it was a bear in the hands of an inexperienced pilot. I recall reading in the last year or two a memoir of a WW II fighter pilot who said his younger brother ended up bailing out of two P-39s during training when they went into flat spins and he couldn’t recover. I forget who’s book it was now.

The P-39 was a decent ground attack plane since it was built around the 37mm cannon. Only the Russians had any success in the fighter role with it.

The German expertan were also able to run up some impressive scores against the Russians. Part of this was due to the nature of the air battles on the front, lots of targets and the Germans were playing defense for the last 2+ years of the war. However, the score discepancies between East and West are striking.

When Eric Hartmann was being interogated by the Russians after the war, he infuriated one of his interogators when asked if he was, in fact, the top ace of the Luftwaffe. Hartmann replied that he wasn’t. He considered Marsailles to be a superior fighter pilot because all of his vicotires were against the British who were much better.

From what I’ve read, most MiG-3s were squandered in low altitude fighting early in the war.

The Pe-2/3 was probably one of the top indigenous designs. The Russians also got many B-25s which they loved. One account I’ve heard is that a Westerner over there helping the Russians learn to fly American planes. The Russian pilots would throw the B-25s around like fighters.

I do admit that of the major combatants, I know the least about the Russian designs. The west was kept in the dark about what they had during the war until the end of the cold war when a lot of information started flowing out, as well as some aircraft that were restored in the west.

Historically, the Russians have been very good at basic science, but weak on manufacturing. The one area where their hardware was equal to or better than the Germans was in tank design. This was aided by a couple of decades of concentration on building farm tractors.

Their aircraft industry suffered from this lack of manufacturing capability before, during, and after WW II. In the 1930s, they had some interesting experimental designs, including the first over the pole flight (which ended only a few miles from where I live). During the Cold War, when faced with having to deal with the potential threat of the B-70, they developed a fighter which did the job by brute force, the MiG-25. The plane was made of stainless steel because they didn’t have the titanium working ability yet. They dealt with the problems of American radar jamming by putting an ultra powerful radar dish on the thing. It had poor range, weighed twice as much as American planes of the same size, used vacuum tubes instead of transistors in the electronics, and was all around more primitive than American designs except in one area. The airframe design and layout was ahead of anything in the west and most of the next generation fighters in the west adopted the advancements of the MiG-25.

During WW II, the Russians also had some interesting designs. The Sturmovik was definitely an innovation in ground attack planes. I wonder how many failed in combat due to poor construction?

One of these days I’m going to have to do some more reading on Russian aircraft. My knowledge is spotty.

Bill

I honestly thinkt he La-7 has to figure in as one of the best fighters of the war.