Here’s a really interesting picture from Northern Italy 1944. So, the two obvious tanks are a Tiger and a Nashorn. There appear to be two hulks in the picture, too, but I can’t place the turret design. Anyone know what the two hulks are in this picture?
I’ll guess a Sherman or Firefly
They are both Shermans of some description, though you can’t see enough to make a positive ID.
They both look like M4 Shermans to me. Can’t tell what model but someone here probably can tell you.
They look like M4A2 to me.
Edit: No, make that A1. [:(DD]
Based on the date of the picture: 1 Mai 1944, and what I can see of them they look like M4A1’s, probably in Italy. The Germans are probably laughing at the puny 75mm guns.
The closer of the two appears to be a welded hull Sherman. Definitely not a Firefly because there is no armored box extension on the rear of the turret. Same goes for the more distant Sherman. But that one may be a cast hull version. It’s hard to be sure. And that “puny” 75 could easily kill the Nashorn. Under an ideal tactical situation, the Tiger could be vulnerable as well.
Admittedly the Sherman could kill both given the right situation, but it would probably take a platoon of Sherman’s to get the Tiger. Looking at it again, I agree that the closest one looks like a welded hull.
I thought it looked like a welded hull too, but I would need better resolution to decide conclusively. Is that 60 degrees or 47?
Thanks, everybody. So, M4A1s with different suspensions. I see it now. The backs of the turrets look a little different from each other, so different variants of the M4A1. I get it. It’s hard to think of them being anything else now. I appreciate everybody’s help.
Its the older smaller hatch hull. If you expand the photo you can see the open drivers hatch.
No, the M4A1 had a cast hull, while all other versions had welded hulls. All shared a common suspension, with the exception of initial production types that used the M3 suspension. In this photo both tanks have the standard trailing return roller arm suspension. The background Sherman may be a cast hull M4A1, but due to its position and the lack of focus on the background, that is iffy at best.
The expanded description includes the phrase “American tank M4”.
So, It gets murkier, then? The suspensions appear different, to me. The closest one uses a suspension mounting bracket but the one in the background doesn’t look like it does. Stik, are you saying its the same suspension system, but different variations of it? Or am I just not seeing the suspension mounting bracket on the tank in the background?
Most of the suspension on the M4 in the foreground is concealed by brush. But I can make out the base of the return roller trailing arm. It is definitely not the early M3 style bogie with the top mounted return roller, or a later E8/HVSS suspension bogie. The background M4 is clearly the M4 trailing arm type. So yes, I am saying that the suspensions are the same. The earlier M3 bogie has a shorter main body, which houses the springs, due to the top mounted return roller.
check out this link for more information
http://the.shadock.free.fr/sherman_minutia/suspension/vvss_suspension.html
Given that is was Armor doctrine to always send a Platoon to prosecute any armor contacts, then, yes. So, it always “took 4 Shermans” versus any other armor. So, if the infantry reported an armor contact, Armor sent forward a platoon, even if it was a PzKKfz II.
Yes… the lone tank assigned a mission is pretty much pure Hollywood stuff. At the end of a mission there may be only one left in reality…
Yeah; the lone tank mission doesn’t sound very typical to me either. The first thing I thought of when I read CapnMac82’s post was the plot for Fury.
Stik: I’m here in So Cal for a week to get away from winter for a little while. On the way down, we stopped at the Patton museum out on I-10 at Chiriaco Summit. First time there, although I lived in CA for my first 50 years. Have you ever been there? It was pretty interesting. I had no idea the Desert Training Area encompassed so much of SE California. It’s worth a look if you ever get out there. The vehicles they have are pretty well worn out, but the stuff in the museum building is well done.
Yeah, Fury was entertaining for the most part. But a single tank moving on to the objective after the rest of the platoon was wiped out…
I have been to the Patton museum at Chiracao pass before. But it’s been many years. Some of the tanks on display look to be salvaged target hulks, with all the damage that they have. It is a nice place to visit. If you’re in the LA area, there is another armor museum in El Monte, whose name escapes me right now, but is worth a visit as well. Enjoy your stay here! I would have invited you to join us at last nights OC IPMS meeting if I had known you were gonna be here.
Certainly don’t worry about the OC IPMS meeting. Wife probably wouldn’t appreciate me abandoning her the first evening we’re here, but I’m sure it would have been interesting.
Yes, a lot of the tanks out there at Chiriaco look like ex-targets. One thing I enjoyed was the cut away of the M60 hull and turret.
I had forgotten all about that one in El Monte 'til you mentioned it. I don’t know the name of it either and the only time I saw the place was by accident as I was going somewhere else.
We are down here in Oceanside near the pier.