Weathering Details Modelers Miss--in real photos (from AAF museum)

Modeling Subjects Armor
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Hey guys and gals, [:|]

As you know, I’ve been to the Armor museum two weekends in a row, and took almost 1,000 photos. While I was there, I kept an eye out for the opportunity to photograph photos that would be significant to modelers. I’ve assembled a good little group of photos here that might help you out.

This thread was also prompted by a recent comment about track detailing on another thread, and about the practice of painting tracks while they were on the model–something that I discouraged because I didn’t think you could properly weather the tracks. In some of these photos, you’ll see why.

I’ve got a number of different vehicles and details to show. Enjoy, and take notes! [:D]

In this first one, notice how the Pz IV wheels are leaking lubrication from a bad seal. You can see the subtle staining, Also, notice how beat up the actual wheels are. (And notice how the lube points are called out in red–does anyone know if this was an original characteristic of German panzers? Or do you think tha it was most likely the handiwork of the Czechs who sold it to the Syrians?)

Next, here’s the wheels on a modern M110 self-propelled howitzer. Note again, the leaking stains from a bad seal.

Some weathered tools from a White Armored Car–the standard US armored car in WWII.

Notice the variations in tone and color on this tank’s finish! This is rather what the “Dot Method” can give you if applied correctly, If nothing else, it informs the discussion on whether or not to weather. Some guys like that “clean” look–but even that can be modulated to a degree.

A few photos of a Sherman M4A3E8’s wheels. Check out the wear on them! This can be effected by chipping at the wheels with an Exacto blade.

The wheel on the right bogey here is down to the rim near the bottom!

Seriously–look at this wear! WOW!

By contrast, this is from the M103 tank. Not much wear because of not much use!

Here’s a towing shackle of an M48; look at the silvering – and the old rust–from the wear—both recent, and old.

Here’s a rusted muffler from an M44 self-propelled howitzer. Note the color and intensity.

More leaking seals on a T55.

The rust on this bumper testifies that this area got a lot of wear and abuse.

Bullet holes in the sprocket of an M1 Stuart

The M113series is made of aluminum. Therefore, the chipping will be dull silver.

More wear on an M113 variant’s towing shackles.

Look at how this M901 (M113 chassis) got its front end chewed up?!

Interesting detail of rubber seal inside an M113 hatch.

This M48A5 in its original paint shows a lot of paint chipping and wear on and under the front bowplate.

See that pipe? That’s not to be rusted—it’s the exhaust hose for the crew heater or something like that. It doesn’t rust like a muffler would. I think I’ve even made that error!

Bill, the museum’s owner, pointing out where the inner faces of the wheels wouldbe silvered and worn where they contact the track guide horns. Yes, he actually spent a lot of time giving me modeling advice! What a great guy, seriously!

This M48A5 Patton had recently been moved—it was used for one of the museum’s “Armor Days”, where they took it out and crushed a junk car. Notice how the wheels have burnished the inner track faces?

Another cool detail–look at how, on these newer wheels, there is still the molding line on the tires? On older wheels, this is worn right off. Look at the wheel in the upper photo–THAT one is worn down. Normally, I sand this right off when I see it. But maybe it’s time to consider the use of whatever vehicle I’m modeling?

Bill was careful to point out the wear on the outside of the track pin links where they would contact the ground? Also, look at the metallic character or the rack guides?

Note the proper points of wear on the sprocket. (Yellow arrows). I can tell you right now that I have weathered these wrong before—just slapping on metallic silver on the whole sprocket edge. Also, the red arrow shows again the burnished character of the track face inside. You just can’t get this detail correct when you paint the tracks on the model. It bears mentioning as well that the wheel faces themselves are burnished!

I hope you’ve enjoyed and learned something from these pics! I have to admit that I myself gained a lot of perspective from the museum and the evidence collected in these photos.

Feel free to leave comments and observations of your own! This could be a very useful thread if everyone contributes! [:O]

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Nice!

I love the Sherman HVSS wheels.! That’s one easy way to remove the mold seam! I’d also point out that the whole wheel is painted. Obviously masking wasn’t the highest of priorities.

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I noticed the muffler doesn’t have that heavy rust scale a lot of people coat their models with.

Nice collect of photo Karl,Thanks

Tony lee

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Absolutley fantastic photos Karl and a great idea posting them with the intention of pointing out the wear, tear, damage, rust and general weathering AFVs of all types are subject to! Its very hard to see these in archival photos and a lot of preserved vehicles in museums have been painted over and over, covering up the use and abuse. Thanks for posting them!!

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Thanks Karl…

Lot’s of good info here…

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Fellow-Doog!: Thanks for looking in! I don’t believe that the Sherman wheels are painted over though; however, if you looked at many of the M60/M48 chassis vehicles the wheels DO have a lot of overspray on them. The owner even did point that out! [:)]

Tony–true, true, about that muffler. Keep in mind though, that that M44 SP Howitzer wouldn’t have had the usage that, say, an M48 or M60 MBT might’ve had. On the card in front of the vehicle, it says that that particular vehicle had only 126 miles on the odometer, and was only used for testing. So, it might not be as beat-up as some. [blkeye]

Ernest-- One of the things that I genuinely love about this museum is the fact that almost every vehicle is exhibited with accurate on-vehicle tools and fittings intact, and the paint schemes are, for the most part, original. It’s rare to see so many well-preserved vehicles SO well-preserved! And all stored indoors too, so they’re not rusting out! Glad that you liked the post! [;)]

You too, Winetanker! [8-|]

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Great observations doog. I too sand all the wheels straight away. But a clean(ish) wheel with the seams intact would allude to a recent replacement.

On other thing, unless I missed in your text, is rolled steel surfaces, casting texture and torch marks on the edges of cut plates. I have recently started doing the former and have been doing the later. I’ll be stepping up the rolled steel on the KT i am about to start. And there isn’t a tank model yet, that I’ve built anyway, that does not need some (read that a crap load) welds.

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Great pics! Thanks for posting.

Mike

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The pictures are very useful for general details. I wouldn’t, however, use them for weathering a model that is of an in-service vehicle. The fading, chipping, staining, etc. show is the result of how many years of sitting and wear? Vehicles during service are touched-up, cleaned, and in general in better condition than the ones shown.

The red painted parts are not from German service.

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I agree with Bronto. For instance, that M60 is really rough. When I was in an M60A3 platoon, our tanks were fully repainted several times a year. When I was on M1A1 and M1A2 tanks with the 1st Cav, they were repainted so frequently I truly couldn’t keep track throughout the course of a year.

Likewise with the M110 road wheel; that leakage is considered a Class 1 leak. The military classifies leaks as Class 1, 2 or 3. Class 1 is the presence of moisture and it would be noted on the daily maintenance log (DA Form 2404) and would be monitored and repaired at the next service or probably more quickly if it developed into a Class 2 leak.

A Class 2 leak is when the fluid begins to form a drop when the vehicle sits for any length of time. That would be repaired as soon as possible, like at the next maintenance halt or when it got back to the motor pool.

A Class 3 leak is basically dripping or spewing of the fluids. It would be remedied immediately if possible.

The dinged up road wheels could be in multiple stages of disrepair. The rear ones tended to get more cracks than the front ones because of the rubbing of the center guides created vibrations in the metal that eventually would cause the separation of the rubber from the metal. A forward road wheel probably wasn’t replaced as often as the rear so it would appear more beat up and “chunked” than the rear ones.

In active duty service, a tank probably had its track replaced annually. We used to road march along the autobahn from Grafenwohr to Hohenfels (a 3 hour tour, a 3 hour tour). It took its toll on the tracks and road wheels just because of the heat and vibrations. A National Guard tank of the same make may sit for years without moving more than a mile. We also tracked vehicle usage by miles AND hours. The engines ran constantly without the vehicles moving during gunnery, alerts, maintenance, etc.

The National Guard also kept a couple of tanks at their armory that stayed there. When they went on their two week annual training, they drew vehicles from a motor pool (MATES site or USAR ECS site) at whatever fort or camp they went to. Since they are using “rent-a-tanks”, they don’t treat them as well as they would vehicles the crew was permanently assigned to.

Much like the photos I took when I ran the maintenance school at Fort Devens, the details are good, but don’t look too much into the weathering. My vehicles sat until needed for a class. Other than the recovery vehicles, the tactical vehicles didn’t have a lot of operational wear and tear from being in the field or having men live on them. They did have a lot of wear from having engines removed, components replaced, and sitting on concrete in the sun, rain, snow and ice.

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Bronto, and Rob,

GREAT posts—thank you for weighing in! That’s knowledgeable perspective from guys who have first-person experience, and that’s priceless.

From a strictly-realistic point of view, I have no counter arguments. From an artistic viewpoint however, the artist in me says "At some point, any or all of those situations could potentially develop in the field–scratches, leaks, etc. Until they get repaired–perhaps a matter of hours?–they would “exist” in “reality”.

From a strictly-artistic point of view, the inclusion of leaks, scratches, wear, etc, is akin to the fake “scars” that Hollywood puts on its heroes in movies like “Rambo” and such–they confer the idea that “This guy is tough; he can take it and keep going; he can’t be stopped even though he’s beat up” Though there will always be that argument about what is “too much” or “unrealistic”, as an artistic choice, it appeals to me.

The input from you both gives reason to pause for consideration of “how much is too much” when beginning the weathering process. Cool beans! [t$t]

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Wow,thanks for some really great reference shots

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One issue I have with modelling is attention to realistic detail. That is one thing that has brought my modelling to a dead halt several times. One thing I do for a living is equipment maintenance with a power washer so I’ve spent many, many hours with nothing to do but go through the monotonous motions and looking at what is in front of me. Unlike light metal, heavy metal doesn’t rust very fast. Also the more you keep your engine and equipment in motion the less you’re going to see rust, especially on the underside and the muffler.

For authenticity in guide horn scuffs etc, etc I like the randomness of brushing. Those tracks move from side to side when they’re in motion but the motion is kind of repeated each time around by all the minute details affecting it. Chunks of rubber will get gouged out of road wheels because big rocks will get kicked up inside the tracks, but that Sherman must have had some extremely heavy use followed by a long time sitting to look that bad. Most likely it was moved for repainting or something after the rubber had already dry-rotted and that would account for a lot of the deterioration on them, especially the parts that aren’t sharply defined. Rubber gets crumbly when it rots.

Leaking wheel cylinders leave axle grease tracks that are spun out from the center by centrifugal force and then dust sticks to it along with chunks of other stuff and it also discolors the paint in other places where its flaked off or whatever. That leak on the T-55 all leaked out while the tank was sitting in one position. When they move it, the moving parts heat up the grease and then they park it and it all leaks out in one direction - down. You can also see that on the M48 Patton where it was moved. The rust spot in the rim was where water sat and rusted it, then they moved it and the seal leaked while the opposite face was down. Seals also deteriorate when a vehicle isn’t moved. You can see in one of your photos where the wheel cylinder leaked a lot fast but it didn’t really get hot enough to sling it out to the edges.

I’m surprised you don’t already drybrush the edges of your tracks because they’re always mushed into the sand or the ground. When we drybrush, the bristles simulate that scrubbing action that the ground does or traffic does or branches do or whatever to any surface which is one reason I hesitate to switch to airbrushing.

The inner track thing that was a minor discussion thing the other day is basically steel polished with rubber so…

So far as the lube points on the Panzer, my guess would be when they were repainted the paint didn’t stick and it flaked off Paint won’t stick to any surface that has a petroleum based film. That might even be the original primer you see.

I’m not gonna say anything else except hardly any of our 113 variants had skirts. I think the FISTV we had in Kuwait had the front attachment but even most of those had long since been removed. Thanks for helping me become even more overwhelmed than I already was. I might just stick with making mine dusty and muddy [;)] Thanks for helping me kill an hour.

After reading back through this I also agree with Bronco and Rob

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Hey Joe,

A great post as well! Thanks for adding to the discussion, and the information base here! Good points and observations!

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Now these are the type of forum discussions we need more of!! Differing viewpoints on modeling related topics, one based on real life experiences and observatons, the other on artistic representation in regards to armor scale modeling!! Everyone reading this thread can’t help but gain a better understanding of how to realistically weather AFVs. Kudos to you all and thanks so much for the compelling,educational, insightful and respectful discussion! [Y][Y]

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I wish to god I’d taken, or had known to have taken, better photos of live and dead vehicles when I was in the service

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Remember, a displayed model is just a moment in time, just like a photograph is.

Example: a picture of Rommel in uniform !http://skepticalcommunity.com/phpbb2/uploads/storm_trooper_smiley.gif

!http://www.freesmileys.org/smileys/smiley-scared001.gifor in the shower.

!http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u250/wildnflgirl/th_cold_shower.gif

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This reminds me of a dicussion I had with the staff at the Tank museum in Bovington last year. A couple of the guys there are modelers so I asked what they thought about the level of chipping etc we often see on builds. The replies where the same, your not going to get a lot of paint wear in a few months but if you get a leak it can cause a stain which will take a while to wear away.

When you think about this if a piece of armour is only 3 weeks old, say the time it would take to get to the front then your not going to get through paint in that time, but if its 3 years old you could wear through paint then. You then have to ask would armour last for 3 years in combat??

I agree about tracks that we often dont treat them in the right way as they would suffer a lot of use but in some cases you have to remember they use transport tracks on such as the Tiger II, which set would take more wear combat tracks or transport?

I like the thread and hope I’ve added a little to the discussion

Phil

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ME TOO!!! lol.

A great discussion though–I hope it continues. The information is great!

Probably not, Phil–and if it would, it would be refurbished at some point.

I think that this kind of never-ending discussion always will boil down to the “reality” camp and the"artistic" camp. It seems that it comes up here every so often, and the discussion–while involving different players–always seems to bring up essentially the same points. [;)]

If anyone else has pictures or photos to contribute, lay 'em on! Here’s another I found for the WII German guys—this jerry can. I always kinda assumed they were plastic, like modern cans, but they’re metal–and they rust. Cool.

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Thank you for this very informative post and for all of the contributions made. [Y][Y]

Lee