posted this at armorama and wanted your take on it as well:
I am thinking of a dio involving a Tiger I late being ambushed by a US unit including a sniper and bazooka team. are any spots on the Tiger particularly vulnerable to the rounds or any other methods a unit in street fighting might use?
Its odd for a Tank to get caught up in city fighting without infantry support I know but it’s an idea for a dio.
I think that rather than focus on whether a “bazooka” could knock out a Tiger 1, an ambush by US troops on a late Tiger would pretty much have to be a later Normandy campaign scenario, or a scene late war (more likely to happen IMHO) inside Germany on one of the few Tiger 1’s left in service. Possibly Italy maybe?
In my mind, an infantry team taking on a Tiger 1 wouldn’t have been part of any “plan”, but a desperate type of engagement. Considering the reputation of the Tiger at that time, and the availability of massed US forces, both land and air, there were many better ways to kill one rather than a bazooka.
Most ( but certainly not all) of the Tiger action in Normandy was around Caen, which was dominated by Monty and the Commonwealth. I think I would try to find an account of this type of engagement, and go from there.
Good luck with what sounds like an interesting premise for a dio.
regards,
Steve
Most likely trying to knock off the track and disable the movement of the tank. If not, probably from the rear towards to engine deck(?).
I seriously doubt that a bazooka team can really take a Tiger out of auction completely.
Disabling it, yes. Hit the tracks and engine.
Ben
Well to answer the question the bazooka round would just bounce off the front of the armour of a tiger i used to talk to an old ww2 solider and he told me bout a story of this company running into a tiger and he shot the bazooka and it just bounced off the tiger at that moment he told me he dropped it and took off in a sprint because he knew they were in real trouble
I’m currently in the middle of building a diorama, one element of which is a Tiger I Late being knocked out by one, lone infantryman with a bazooka. The Sergeant in question was awarded the Distinguished Service Cross for first firing multiple rounds at the tank (reloading by himself), then, after forcing it into a withdrawl with a somewhat lucky shot, he pursued the tank and disabled it with his last bazooka round. In addition to the vehicle, his actions killed 8 of the German infantry supporting the tank and the crew as they came out fighting.
So, yes, you’re idea for a dio is very possible and could have easily happened more than once, particluarly in the larger cities or during major engagements.
I don’t particularly think that whether or not a bazooka could knock out a Tiger or not should be a concern for your dio. The first time that a unit would come up against these tanks, with all the contemporary myth and mysteries surrounding them at the time, it’s perfectly reasonable to expect that they would have thrown everything and anything at one of them to see if they could stop it.
That’s not “incorrect” to model that moment in time.
A Tiger has 80mm frontal armor and 60mm side armor. A bazooka can only peniytrare 75mm. While I have seen damge to the frontal armor, it is ofent a dent. a a bazooka makes a small hole. The most volnerable side is where the extra rounds are stored just above the sponsons, second would be the track. While taking out the track would imosible the tank from moving, the turret would still be mobile. Even destruction of the engine would not stop the turret from moving as there is a hand crank that traverses the turret.
[#offtopic]If the tank becomes stuck and can not move or travere the turret they would drain the oil from the cannon shock absorbers and fire a round destroying the gun.
Happy Holidays and Best Regards,
Mark
Hi Foster
Uh…I don’t think anybody has said that the scenario wasn’t possible. By your own description, ALL the bazooka rounds and a “somewhat lucky shot” resulted in a DFC for this guy. I would say he was indeed lucky to live thru it, his award could very well have been posthumas. . I think the suggestion would be to structure the scene to reflect “desperation” rather than, “let’s take a bazooka and take out a Tiger”. I don’t think any grunt in thier right mind would sign up fpr that detail.
I think it would also be noteworthy to research what unit (type) actually carried a Bazooka squad in the TO&E. Things such as when the weapon was fielded in the ETO, and specific unit histories citing these types of engagements would also be helpful.
regards,
Steve
I am really interested in that build and hope that once completed you’d post up some pics. However, I think in a scenario were the bazooka team has the high ground (possibly out a window of a building) or were the underbelly of the tank is exposed (perhaps when driving over a mound of dirt with the bazooka team sitting in a defilade or crater)
It will probably be my first major attempt at
1: zim
2: dioramas… but I’ll post it when i get the chance. lt might be a while.
I would think the team would be a little on the screwed side. lol
My original thoughts were a small group of troops sitting in shattered town and suddenly “oh shit a tiger is coming”
All the previous statements aside, if the bazooka team has a choice, they will try to attack from the rear. Since your thninking an urban setting, possible even from above and rear. A rooftop or an above ground floor window. Keep the loader clear of the backblast area. Small enclosed rooms are not good for firing a bozooka from, but balconies or rooftops would be better.
according to what I’ve heard first hand the weak spot was in the rear. Exactly where in the rear of the tank I’m not real sure, but do know that’s the conclusion that ordance came up with.
gary
the title reminds me of Kelly’s Heros, Oddball says the only way to kill the Tiger is point blank and from behind.
The team would need to knock a track off. but if they could hit the engine area they might actually have a shot at getting their attention {in a good way}
with 2 machine guns and the main gun I don’t think I would want to shoot at it head on
As Kelly said, the Tiger is an open field tank and we have these in the narrow streets of the town…
Steve,
The story that Foster is mentioning is from the book Battle of the Bulge 1944 (2) from OSPREY Publishing. I don’t have the book in front of me right now, but I’ve been reading this book on and off for past few weeks. It stated that a lone US soldier knocked down German tank with his bazooka and diverted enemy attack (he destroyed first tank and when it was disabled, other vehicles could not go around it). I don’t recall it specifically stating which unit the soldier was from, but I remember seeing the name of German unit that was affected by it.
As for vulnerability, I’d say they could certainly be aiming at the tracks. Knock out a tank, any tank, in a city environment, and you’ve got a bottle neck or a choke point that creates a handy kill zone for an ambush.
As for bazookas, I’d say I’d rather attack a Tiger I with a bazooka than attack a Tiger I without a bazooka.
Not a textbook (field manual) action, but a perfectly feasbale dio idea, in my opinion.
Here’s an incident from August 10, 1944. the 2nd Bn of the 12th Inf. Regiment was trying to re-take St.Barthelmy near Mortain.
"Sergeant Burick of E company heard a tank approaching down the road that ran in front of the orchard where the battalion was dug in. Burick grabbed a bazooka, loaded it, and stepped out into the road. He waited until the tank rolled close enogh to be identified as a fifty-five ton Tiger. Then Burick pulled the trigger.
Nothing happened. The safety was stuck.
Sergeant Burick released the safety and raised the bazooka to fire again. The tank was almost on top of him when he pulled the trigger a second time. At almost the same moment, the Tiger’s 88mm cannon belched a tongue of fire.
The blast knocked Burick down, but the sergeant reloaded his bazooka again, and fired again just as the tank’s main gun ket loose another round.
Again Burick was knocked to the ground, this time badly wounded. He crawled to his foxhole and found another round for his bazooka. Burick loaded his weapon a third time. Unable to stand, he dragged himself to a firing position and let loosed a third shot at the Tiger.
That was enbough for the German tank commander. He put his monster onto reverse and backed up the road.
“Burick with utter disregard for his safety, tried to push another injured soldier into his foxhole.” reported Lt. William Anderson. “Burick turned and called for more bazooka ammunition, then fell unconscious by the side of the road. Later, he died of his wounds.”
This passage from Alywyn Featherston’s book “Saving the Breakout” shows two things, 1) how tough the front armor of a Tiger was and 2) the fiercesome backlash that the blast of a cannon could give without the effect of shrapnel.
telsono: your story reminds me of one of the pet peeves I see in dioramas. Any infantry working near armor would know to keep away from the EXTREMELY dangerous zone near the tank’s muzzle due to the concussive forces of the firing. It’s enough to kill someone near the muzzle.
That’s why dioramas showing crouched figures firing off into the distance, right near the front drive sprocket aren’t very realistic. Same thing with german aircraft spotters in front of 8.8cm Flak guns.