Guys: In my research of the Tiger I I read in “Tiger in Action” that it used a stationary defensive position of “turret down” which explained why sometimes only the turret was whitewashed in winter. WHY?! The frontal armor was 100cm and the turret and hull tops were 25cm if I recall correct…so why did it “hunker down” Was the lower front hull weak? When they say turret down do they mean "nose down with the barrel lifted?..OR…what?
Although I don’t plan to do the winter camo’ thing I would like to pose my build with this positioning in mind so any info would be helpful. Thanks!
“Turret Down” and “Hull Down” are more correctly known as Turret Defilade and Hull Defilade these days. “Turret Down” means that nothing showed above ground but the TC, “Hull Down” means the hull is behind a berm or terrain feature, with the turret exposed in order to engage…
As for armor thickness, that’s not the main consideration in defense. The main consideration is concealment, and a hull-down Tiger is gonna be damn hard to spot, and even harder to spot when turret-down… When it’s turret-down, there’ll be a slight rise in the position that will allow the driver to pull forward on and unmask the turret on the TC’s order for the gunner to engage… Imagine it, if you will, that hull-down is a “crouch”, turret down is the armor equivilent of a prone infantryman in ambush…
Well the simple answer is that when the Tiger first appeared on the battlefield it was pretty much immune to anything the Russians had and the Tigers could stroll around the area without much concern, but that didn’t last long… The Russians learned quickly thus the Tigers had to be more careful and smarter.
That’s the short sunday school version… I’m sure someone will chime in and rattle off the ballistics tables and all that crap shortly… [:)]
AND as Hans just said… they’re harder to see and hit in a defensive posture…
Hans von Hammer: OK, the photo I like definately doesn’t apply.
BUT…
I kinda’ like the hull down idea with a terrain feature…I have a forest setting/camo’ in mind so berms could be plentiful…that’s one idea…
OR…
Besides a bush or hedge for cover, would it be plausible to create a defense shield if there were NO berms? Say of fallen timber laced with branches?..see where I’m going with this?
Sure… But in prepared defensive positions, the Pioniers would dig out the tank’s firing position, instead of having to rely on the terrain… A fallen tree (a fairly big one) could serve as the basis of the berm… The Pioniers would put the dirt from the pos over the tree trunk to increase the berm’s size & thickness. Then the crew would set about camouflaging it… Bushes and hedges aren’t cover, BTW… They’re concealment… Cover is whatever will stop or slow down whatever the bad guys are shooting at you with… Concealment makes the cover hard to spot…
Hey… How’s this for turret-down if you have no terrain to hide behind?[:D]
You military guys are great! and thanks for the clarifications! I dig that fallen tree idea! I could pose the figures shoveling the dirt and placing the branches! One more question…what is a Pionier?..is that a fancy German name for “Private”?
Is that like the Cub Scout handbook for the Army?[(-D] No disrespect there by-the-way. It’s just that my sons and I are working through Webelos and Wolf Pack right now and somehow that reminded me of the handbooks.
Seriously though, I’ll study that more…do you got a link for more in-depth info and text? This could evolve into a cool little dio’…thanks Hans!
OK, there goes the figures idea…which is not a bad thing because I suck at figure painting[|(]!I’d rather dio’ the tank in firing position in an already made concealment…did I get that right this time[:D]?
The only way to NOT suck at figures is paint some… You don’t need to start out at the level these guys are at around the figure painting hooch are… In fact, they didn’t either… Figure painting is crawl/walk/run… Pick up Shep Paine’s Dio book and get busy… Everything you need to know is in there… Don’t sweat the eyeballs and pea-dot cammo… Soldiers are out in the sun, they squint, and there were plenty of Panzer Black and Field Gray uniforms still around…
Cover, THEN concealment… [;)] Concealment don’t stop bullets and bombs…
Hans: I was being a bit dramatic about my abilities…actually I’m not that bad at fig’s but when I see stuff like panzerguy’s “coffee break” dio’ I realize the figures and the quailty he paints them ADDS to the work. At this point mine only add scale, and context, but not enhancement/mood.
I studied that tank turret down graphic last night and I kinda’ like the idea. The tree covered path behind the positioning would be a bit ambitious, but I think I could model the terrain so that it looked like the Pioneer’s had already come in, carved the hill and left…and then I’d put the Tiger moving into position. The commander could be leaning out the cuplola and a figure could be on the ground helping direct the driver…I’ll be drawing a sketch of the idea and post it here soon, I’d like your input!
