i think it is interesting to note … although small the german navy induced fear among the allies bismark printz eugen etc…
when the panther and tiger tanks came about figurativly speaking we crapped our pants. yet with the exception of the v-1 v-2 and very very late in the war jets the same fear or worry never seemed to embrace the flyboys to them it Seemed more like oh boy more stuff to shoot at
your thoughts
I would tend to disagree with you on one or two things…
I think the Fw-190 is a definite ‘oh crap!’ moment… That the Mk Vs were out done as the current marque of Spitfire, and that it wasnt until the introduction of the Mk IX that the RAF had an answer to the new Nazi fighter.
Just my onion…
Well, I think you’re also bringing up a question about ‘fighter pilot’ mystique as well. One thing I’ve noted through reading various materials and paying attention to interviews, for what its worth, fighter pilots carry themselves in a different manner than do their armed forces counter parts.
From what I can tell, and what I think was common, was that young fighter pilots had an air of invincibility about them. They were pilots, which at the time, in and of its self was quite an accomplishment. They were confident, adventurous folks. Take for instance the guys who volunteered to take on the Japanese in ‘inferior’ aircraft before the war even began. I think these pilots had an immense amount of confidence in their skills and cunning no matter what machines the enemy could throw at them. And that goes for pilots on all sides.
Also, I think to a great extent, most pilots had a confidence in their own aircraft. Despite being inferior, so to speak, they all knew the strengths and weaknesses of their machines and how to exploit their strengths to their advantage. They also knew when to fold them and when to hold them. For instance, it was quite known that dog fighting a Zero in a P-40 wouldn’t turn out favorably, but they used other tactics to win. This occurred through out the war. So I think in general, pilots have a different attitude towards combat (being so impersonal), towards death and toward their own ability.
Whereas an infantryman facing off against a Tiger or a Panther is in a whole different kind of mess. He isn’t equipped for such a fight and should rightfully so ‘crap his pants’.
However, even a Sherman wasn’t adequately equipped to take on a Tiger or Panther, early on any way. I think that if I was in a Sherman during the war, knowing full well that a Tiger could reach out and touch me before my gun could so much as scratch his paint would unnerve me…greatly. Especially knowing that my tank would burst into flames without much resistance.
Those are just my thoughts.
Jon
The German fully realised that they were unable to match the Western Allies, and more importantly the Russians on a quantative basis, and therefore sought to nullify the overwhelming numerical superiority of the allies through qualatative superiority.
This is born out by tanks such as the Tiger and Panther, both of which could out range their opponents in a straight shoot out, and allowing them to destroy opponents at a range at which they themselves were relatively safe.
The German jets were a serious concern to the allies, mainly the 262 because of it’s sheer speed and firepower but also the Ar 234 due to it’s ability to make recon flights at will. They were a world away from what the Allies had available at that time, a view born out by the likes of Eric Brown, who was in a position to know.
Karl
I don’t agree. Especially regarding the German Navy. While the U-boats did cause havoc for both GB and the US, it was more due to numbers of escorts available and outmoded tactics, rather than some major technological edge. The German surface fleet, due to its small numbers, while a threat, was not much of true challenge for domination, unlike the IJN. Especially after the Norway campaign of 1940. The Royal Navy alone could adequately deal with the threat for the most part. Once the Italian fleet was surrendered and heavy forces could re deploy from the Med to the Atlantic, and US forces were in theater the challenge was reduced even more.
On the ground, it all depended upon the area of operations. Tiger tanks in Italy, Sicily, and North Africa, did not have the effect upon the battlefield that they did in Russia. Their numbers were not enough to truly effect the battlefield. Not to mention that terrain often allowed Allied tankers to negate the stand off advantage. The Panther was a more serious challenge, but after the Normandy battles, its’ weaknesses were also noted and exploited by veteran Allied tank units.
In the air, the bomber crews had a healthy dose of respect for the Luftwaffe. At least until the early 1944 when the Jagdwaffe had been worn down by allied fighters and many experienced airmen and leaders killed. The replacements then became “meat on the table” for the more numerous, increasingly more experienced, well trained, and aggressive Allied fighters.
From what I can gather from conversations with soldiers in all wars, both as read or personally, when a soldier worries about equipment it has everything to do with his own, and not the other guys.
“#@$**&” POS jammed again!
I cannot agree at all on this.
Guys, lets not forget the fact that the Luftwaffe nearly stopped the entire Allied daylight bombing campaign. If you dont think that those allied airmen were crapping their pants over having to go up again and again, youre mistaken. I personally met one of the enlisted men–a gunner–from the Memphis Belle crew. He used to work with my dad years back, when I was a kid. He used to talk about how the flak was what it was–it was in the way and they had to fly through it. But the German fighters were altogether different in that they actively sought out their targets within the bomber formations. Apparently it had quite an effect on the minds of those young kids. The goal of 25 missions must have seemed completely impossible back then.
Let’s also not forget the fact that our industry would never have been forced to make better and better aircraft if not for what the enemy was fielding. The P-51D Mustang would perhaps never been conceived if not for the fact that we very nearly had to give up on daylight heavy bombing due to lack of long range escorts.
Another good case in point-if you think that the flyboys didnt have the same sense of fear, you have never studied the Battle of Britain. The one and only reason why Germany didnt win that one is because they didnt target the right things. They never knew how close they came to beating the Brits–if they focused on the radar stations until they were all wiped out, they would have been able to launch wave after wave of bombers with far lower losses. They would then have been able to target the industry that maintained the RAF, and things would have turned out very differently. The Brit pilots often flew 4, 5, or even 6 times a day trying to save England. Believe me, it wasnt what you think.
And then, of course, there’s the fighter pilot. Many would never admit to being scared. That doesnt mean that they werent scared out of their wits time and again.
Not quite sure what your point is. [8-)]
True, the Germans developed weapon systems that were somewhat advanced. But necessity is the mother of invention and the Germans were with their backs to the wall. And not to mention, with all the slave labor at their disposal, that they were able to accomplish miracles in terms of production.
In terms of Aircraft development, all other nations were working on jet technology before the war. Tanks: Panthers and Tigers were excellent armor, but they too, had disadvantages. The Germans were not superior. In fact, in terms of electronics, the Allies were far advanced: centrimetric radar, HF/DFjust to name a few.
Not really. At least from the old vets I spoke with and recalled some of their experiences. For the mojority they had great respect for their adversaries and spoke very highly of their weapons.
If anyone tells you they were’nt scared going into combat, or didn’t feel uneasy and have an upset stomach, they’re telling a lie or they have never been in combat. You never get used to it, you just accept it as a job that has to be done. It’s worse when you know that your outgunned. This is on the water, in the air and on the ground.
I agree that anyone going into combat felt an uneasiness, but 20 year old kids were invincible in their own minds. I think that it is well documented that the Germans could build a more sophisticated weapon, but they lost the battle to the numbers. They were overwhelmed by sheer numbers on both fronts.
The Germans gained an advantage when the western allies took the war back to continental Europe. The spitfire could hold its own very well against the Luftwaffe fighters, but the issue became range of flight. Protection of the bomber streams became the major issue facing the allied airforces. That wasn’t fully satisfied until the P-51 and long range tanks were brought into service. Also once airfields were established in France, the fighter force was able to give better cover. I’m sure that the feeling of a bomber crew varied greatly from that of an escort fighter pilot.
My last babble is about the Me 262. The 262 provided an “oh crap” factor for everyone. But like they say, it was just too little, too late. It was the most dangerous fighter of the war. Fortunately that project was mismanaged’ wasting many months developing it as a bomber. Rick
“Alone, Unarmed, and Unafraid”- Recon Pilot’s Squdron Motto
“Alone, Unarmed, and Scared Sh*tless”- Recon Pilot