They are not going to fly with it but it is a spectacular build:
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2009/06/090625-hitlers-stealth-fighter-plane.html
I watched this program. It was very interesting.
It was. There was a lot of speculation that the 229 could have changed the tide of the war, but I doubt it would have made that much of a difference. The German aircraft industry and military had several major issues when it came to equipment production. Couple that with the allies ability to saturate the battlefield with equipment and personnel, the axis still would have failed. The appearance of the 262 and 229 would have served to escalate both the British and American jet programs into production. Again we would have found a way to put jets into combat in larger quantities than the Germans.
The program focused on the defensive radar Britain used, but in its abscence they would have used picket ships and spotters…which they did. As the program stated…the engines were the 229’s archilles heel…unreliable and what caused the fatal crash of the first 229.
The show was nice to watch while I worked at the bench.
interesting post, but there a little more to the equation than that. There were other far more interesting projects on the drawing boards than the H229, and nearly as capable in someways and much more capable in other ways. A dozen H229’s could have easilly destroyed the air defenses in Britian. This is noy speculation, but a matter of fact. Jets flying over the UK pretty much had their own was as it was, and this would have made it easier. Once the supply chain was shattered in England; things would have ground to a crawl on the western front. But I see little difference on the eastern front. Russia would have still won the war in the end. Yet the key to this was not the H229 fighter bomber, but something on a much grander scale. Perhaps the so called Amerika Bomber? If the plane were as good as it was claimed; then we had problems. It wouldn’t have been long before the major ports on the east coast were shut down. Thus tieing the knot on the noose. With that in mind it even seem plausable that the same aircraft could have been used to destroy the Russian tank factories, or at least made them move them time and time again. Just a regular bombing of Murmansk would have had a grand effect on the eastern front.
Still the real problem with 1940’s jet engine was life span. The metalurgy just wasn’t there, and really didn’t emerge till the late forties. The engine design in west was not all that good, and with the Axis; they were about two generations away from really doing it right. There really wasn’t much development with the Allies as we didn’t understand wing development as well as how to do multiple compressor stages as well as the Germans. I think that if the Germans could have found a better heat resistent metal (they were well into this part), and built an even more powerfull engine that was good for at least 300 hours we might have been in trouble. Messerschmidt was working on a plane that was very similar to the U.S. B47 (it’s been said that much of the design on the B47 came right out of Germany). If they could have bought enough time to build twenty five of them, I think they’d have had the time to finish out the atom bomb.
But in the end, it all boils down to the Russians. Unless Germany got the bomb. The western front did nothing but keep the Axis busy while the Russians moved west at their own blitzkrieg.
gary
Read the book Amerika Bomber, it clearly details the projects the Germans were developing to attack US shores, as well as their other major problem, supporting Uboats far from land. The buracracy and corruption within the German government and aerospace industry contributed a great deal to Germany’s loosing the war. The on again off again of support for the various programs grew even more constrained as the war began to curtail availability of raw resources for the production of aircraft. Engines both jet and piston were not meeting the requirements in performance or availability for the aircraft being designed and produced.
Germany wanted a long range transport aircraft to ferry between the homeland and Japan, yet they were never able to build a suitble one. Had they worked with their axis partner Japan maybe they might have achieved such an aircraft. But instead they kept throwing good money at bad or unrealistic ideas. There were those who understood what needed to be done but the “system” played favorites, and if you weren’t in that circle your suggestions fell on deaf ears thus no funding to test your ideas. It also helped the allies that Hitler himself had is own agenda which changed with the phase of the moon. He pissed away men, machines and money on projects/plans that again contributed to the outcome of the war history has recorded.
A quote by a German Officer in a book I am currently reading says it best…“If the aircraft overhead were camo they were British, if they were silver they were American and if there were none at all they were German.”
Had Germany invaded England, we probably would have established bases in Russia and pushed into Berlin sooner from the east. The route that lend lease aircraft took from the US via Alaska would also had been used as an air bridge for ground troops. Then by air and rail from Siberia to Moscow for staging before going on to the front. It would be an interesting story none the less.
I think they play up the “what-if” angle a little much, in sensational fashion, if you will, to help create interest for the show and get better ratings.
It was a good show in regards to the Northrop guys getting a little recreational time to test a theory.
I agree with the assessment of bureaucratic corruption and infighting as the pure weakness of the German fascist system. They may have called themselves “Socialists”, but the people were the last thing they were interested in.
As far as what difference could have been made, vehicles like the 229 and 262 came far too late. Hitler did himself and the German military in by thinking in a purely tactical mindset geared only toward attack. Gaining ground is one thing, holding it requires a deeper thought process.
My own favorite “what if” has always been Hitler dying in a plane crash in July, 1940.
Ah, if only Mr. Peabody would grant me the use of his “Way Back Machine”.
My only issue with the show was the fact they were trying to play up the “Stealth” angle a bit too much. Honestly, this was the first time I’d heard that the Ho 229 was built with the purpose of stealth in mind. Wasn’t the wood used more because it was a non-strategic material?
I just thought they were trying too hard to make a connection which wasn’t necissarily there.
What do you expect from a company that makes it money from stealthy products. This whole project served two purposes for Northrup…to write the whole story on stealth and create a nice model for some museum.
The model shop guy said they make lots of models that never see the light of day…ever wonder what other aircraft they have built and tested on the “stand.”
Down in the Dallas area there is or was a Texas Instruments facility that tested RF signatures from aircraft. When I was last there it had an EF-111 on its stand…the aircraft was mounted upside down.
Well to be perfectly frank, I much prefer what’s left of the original to that model, which doesn’t look very realistic. I could see a lot more of the original.
I also think the article is really poorly written, for a mag like NG. Way too much speculation and what-if. Also, the interchangeability of the term Nazi with German is inaccurate, though perhaps a little less so here as the thing had political significance, I suppose. And I don’t think the term “stealth” had been used in the context of radar evading machines at that time, so it’s an anachronism.
But, thanks borg for posting, it is pretty nice looking.
[2c]
Way back in the '80s, I used to visit the Garber Facility regularly, and even as bad as my memory had become over the years, I distinctly remember docents mentioning the 229’s construction was partly to reduce its radar signature.
Cheers!
Ben
read the book What If?
gary
From the research I have done the 229 was made out of wood due to lack of raw materials not for steath purposes. The flying wing configuration was chosen because it is the most efficent shape thus offering the best performance. It was only afterwards that they noticed that the plan had a very small radar signature in relation to its size. It was not a “steath” airplane. It just had a smaller radar signature due to the wood construction and the flying wing design. It was not a new surprise either the British new about the lower radar signature that wooden airplanes gave off when they started using Mossie’s. A Mosquito flying a low altituded was very hard for German radar to pick up and that is why they were so sucsesfull when employed on low level raids. That and it fast speed made them almost immune to interception. The designers of the F-117 did visit the remains of the 229 at the museam when they were designing it. Just what they took away from that visit I do not know. just my[2c]!
Soulcrusher[oX)]
Yes I have it’s one of my favorites. Found a copy in the book rack at an icon retreat I went to some years ago and read it cover to cover again. What if Alexander had drowned in the river?
The Horten bros. were glider designers and IMHO that’s where the form derives from.
Is it wrong that, during most of the section when they were showing the remains of the actual aircraft, I spent most of the time trying to see if the Bv 155 was in the background? [:D]
On a bit of a tangent, I’m a bit sad that the public isn’t allowed in the Paul Garber facility anymore. Of any museum anywhere, most of what I would like to see is in there. I’ve heard plans of moving some, if not most, of the aircraft there to the Udvar Hazy Center, but who knows when THAT’LL happen?
But I digress.
I hope they are going to braodcast that program over here as well. We have national geografic here in the Netherlands but the programming is different.
Primary reason for the Horten brothers to build flying wings was areodynamic efficincy (just like Northop). I therfore think the shape of the 229 was not meant to be stealhty, but maybe (semi)stealth was a side effect. Just like on the XB-49.
there are several books titled “What If.” The one I’m refering to is by Showalter. I have another that I’m about half way thru that covers a much longer period of history. They bring out a few facts about WWI that I never knew about. If you want to read my copy let me know, and I’ll loan it to you
gary
You bring up a good point Mike. I recently read that the Smithsonian Museum is only able to display a fraction of what they actually have. There are hundreds of artifacts that are locked away and not accesable to the public. Some of them very significant like the very first Ford Mustang ever build. They article also went on to say that they also have no plans to display any of these rare item anytime soon either, very sad.
Soulcrusher[oX)]
I understand and enjoying discussing counterfactuals. My point is that for a show like this, they might play up the what-if factor to a greater significance than it has, for the sake of taking what is really an esoteric subject, outside our community, and making it more attractive for a broad audience.
That’s probably a big reason with The History Channel has so little history and so much more crypto-zoology and UFO stories anymore, and tons of Nazi stuff, that is really superficial, when you look at the content. Like the story on Hitler’s relatives, including kids in the US today-I think there was a question in that show, raised by implication, of whether another maniacal dictator might arise from the bloodline. I mean, c’mon!
+1, that monsterquest has realy run its course, IMNSHO.
I get sucked in many times, but it’s always the same: true kool aid drinker beleivers talking about the animal in concrete terms, never “if this exists, we speculate thus,” but rather always “This is where they feed.”
Then there is the expedision, the most recent I caught was looking for live dinosaurs, they kept finding holes in riverbanks, stating emphatically that they were “vent holes,” yet they didn’t dig any to find out because they didn’t have the right equipment, despite the shovel, which is what I use to dig, and would certainly use to dig if I was on an expedition to Africa and found what I was certain to be a dinosaur hole. With cameras. But they didn’t.
They always come back empty handed.
Sorry for the tangent.
Bill