I’d suggest you read further into the matter. 1.5 million people were shot, and many millions more sent to gulags where they were worked to death.
and how many died in the war? i don’t care if i don’t have the numbers 100% off the top of my head, i don’t want to see this crap as if they deserved it all.
here’s some statistics:
http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat1.htm
does it change how i feel about trivialising soviet war losses? not at all.
I myself would never trivialize the war deaths, even if most numbers quoted about the Soviets lumped in Stalin’s purges. From what I’ve read about the war on the Eastern front, metaphorically speaking, it seemed to be something of a knife fight in a phone booth. Both sides were brutality vicious and for the civilians caught in the middle, I doubt there are many people who can truly understand what it was like. On there hand, the term “hijinks” strikes me as the wrong word and perhaps even trivializes Stalin’s brutality. Whether tortured and murdered by the Nazis, or tortured and murdered by Stalin’s people probably doesn’t make a bit of difference to the victims.
I’ll grant your point about Finland, although the “Alliance” was one of convenience. Or as a Finnish chemist from another board once stated, “The enemy of my enemy, is my friend.” Since the Soviets were involved in an attempt at northern conquest, at Finland’s expense, I suppose the Nazi Germans seemed like some handy friends.
About Poland, the Western partition was over-run and conquered by the Germans which hardly meets the definition of an alliance. The same logic, makes Poland’s Eastern partition an ally of the Soviet because the Reda Ary conquered it a couple weeks after the Nazi’s conquered the Western section.
I agree that Stalin used that justification for his war of agression as did Hitler for his early conquests. The problem with that kind logic to justify a war of conquest, particularly in Europe, is that with such a long history of lands changing ownership, just about every country can have a good excuse to attack it neighbors.
i use the term “hijinks” sarcastically.
Hi Larry; yes - it seems to be a fantastic kit allowing for a lot aftermarket stuff and great conversions sets. I’m that we shortly see a big number of different turret styles and replacement roadwheels for this kit.
Yet, with all the new tanks, I do would wish for some AT guns. Especially a Russian 76,2 mm ZiS-3 or a British 6pdr gun would be a great addition. And I hope to see more vehicles kits instead of only new tanks. A 2 1/2 Jimmy would be popular with many guys.
Time will tell!
Regards
Frank
Oh, give me a break.
I didn’t trivialize the Soviet War dead. What I did was belittle the constant griping the Soviet leadership did that the Western Allies didn’t do more to help the Soviet Union. Why should they, when the Soviet Union was gaily murdering its own civilians in vast numbers, when it wasn’t sending them into wars of conquest like against the Finns or conspiring with the Nazis to jackal a smaller nation, Poland.
And if you think that the Poles allied with Nazi Germany at any time, you obviously need much more than a little help in the facts. So please, save the high horse for when you know what you are talking about.
if that’s what you meant then that’s what you meant. you’re right. but seriously, i just want to hear something positive about the damnation that is my homeland for once on this forum. the people are bastards, you STILL have a good chance of not making it through the army and the water is slowly turning into toxic sludge among other things and those are the facts i DO know. we book it out of there as refugees and i still defend it for some reason.
This thread is disturbing; yet interesting. One leaves the homeland of his fathers, hoping for a better life in a prosperous society, and yet feels the need to protect that old homeland from verbal attack, or misrepresentation. Most interesting indeed; because both of you feel perfectly justified in refering to fighting men in the Wehrmacht as “nazi”.
Men of my family blood fought and died in both world wars. They served for their fatherland; not for a political idealism, not to promote an agenda of conquest, but simply to serve their country. Yet today, the media, cinema, and world governments continue to portray that service as something considerably less than honorable.
I completely understand GoatMonkey’s sentiments, and conversely, Larry’s bewilderment at the former’s sensitivity.
Emil Hoffmann
Speaking for myself, I realize full well that not all Germans were Nazis. Nonetheless, I often refer to the German military as Nazi this and Nazi that, in recognition that the Nazis were the driving force behind the military. In other words, if I were to talk about the Nazi Army, I am referring the Army used by the Nazis as opposed to an Army composed of Nazis. I thinking also that I subconsciously do it to further tie WWII atrocities to the Nazi party rather than the German people themselves. Although what happened was appalling, I view it as a horrble abheration, and would not want want that stigma to be attached to current Germans, who had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
It is a fine line to walk, separating the plain courage of people fighting for their country against the evils perpetrated by the Government’s plan of conquest. On the other hand, I think there are a number of films in which the individual German soldiers are not portrayed as being excessively evil. What I always found fascinating was the bad rap that the German submariners received, (The Enemy Below and Das Boot not withstanding), because of all the German military branches, the u-boats had the lowest percentage of Nazis.
Andy
Very good point, which is why I dropped out of the initial discussion. The sentiments you make Larry, regardless of your intent, DO belittle the lives lost, and definitely take a one-sided approach to the argument. I do get kind of turned off with having any discussions here, as your arguments always carry a tone of angst, and your views are always typically western, and just ridiculously slanted to one degree. Comments such as “get off your high-horse until blah blah blah” could probably be phrased in a more civil fashion. Others make points and corrections, but they just don’t carry the tone of insolence that you so often do.
Granted Stalin wasn’t the sanest of leaders, yet the war is STILL today refered to as the Great Patriotic War, and as many civilians that were pushed into the gulags and died, four times more gave their lives freely and willingly in the defense of their homeland. To imply that the Allies didn’t get involved because Stalin was killing off his own civilians is a laughable ‘argument’, one that would be easily and readily dismissed in academia today. The allies did not get involved for a multitude of political, logistical, and ideological reasons, and NOT solely on the basis that Stalin was a lunatic. Larry, thus maybe you should get off your own pedestal, as clearly you are not demonstrating an understanding of the entire political situation at the time, thus not giving you enough credibility to shut someone else down. Both of you have demonstrated a knowledge of one single aspect, or opinion if you will, and with such a limited scope, neither of you has really demonstrated a good argument.
That’s a different issue though.
For what it’s worth, I love the Russians, and I hope that the country goes into the 21st century a better place for them to live than ever. When I play Napoleonics, I always play the Russians. I frequently build Soviet armor too.
My feelings about Stalin do not reflect my feelings about the Russians. In fact, to the contrary. It was the Russians who suffered under Stalin’s rule.
Well, this is a failure of reading comprehension on your part, which it’s obviously impossible for me to remedy, so I won’t try.
You know, that’s a very interesting statement from someone who never missed an opportunity to scorn 48th scale on a hobby board until he was taken to task on it. Someone who expressed a desire to see a modeling company “buckle” because he has some bizarre personal animosity toward them.
Examples, please? I rarely write at all about politics here, and in fact usually ask that others don’t. When I do discuss them, it’s usually to critique Western- (or American-) biased perspectives as being off the mark.
l could point out, of course, that you are the one who began this discussion in the first place, with your statement that the poor Soviets had to suffer under Nazi invasion because the big bad Western Allies didn’t help. Talk about ridiculously slanted. That’s typical Soviet-era double-talk to blame the Western allies for the problems the Soviet leadership brought squarely onto its own people. There’s a reason that Soviet Russia was a pariah state in the early 1940s.
It’s ironic that you cast aspersions which in fact reflect so well your own behavior here. It seems clear that you choose to interpret the annoyance that you periodically generate in me, and in other posters here as well, as “insolence.” I think that says more about you than about the people reacting to you though, but of course you’re free to interpret it any way you want.
Thank you. This statement sums up your firm grasp of the realities of the history better than any critique I could write.
I’m working on Tamiya’s 1/48 Sherman right now. Please don’t confuse me as a quarter scale fan, because I do perfer 1/35. I’m overseas right now, and the smaller scale seems to be better suited for out here. Anyway, I’m very happy with tamiya’s sherman, and if their T-34 is as good I may build one before this deployment is up.
Political debate is fun to read, but I can’t really add anything that hasn’t been said already.
Semper Fi,
Chris
Chris, you might want to consider the Hetzer too. It’s a beautiful little kit, and it’s really tiny.
Actually, I find it consistent that I would show my angst towards 1/48 by taking the opportunities to scorn it. SImly because I post a review here, or show appreciation for a well built model, does not reflect on my general opinions of what I think of that scale. Further, the sudden introduction of this scale by Tamiya is naturally going to be an extension to my argument. I find it difficult to believe that you don’t harbor some animosity towards some institution, be it a government body, an unhelpful grocer, or a modeling company. I hardly find this to be ‘bizzare’.
And you would be correct in pointing that out. However, your next comment folliwing that was to reiterate in the tone of belittling the Soviet situation, which is where the error is. What I meant to say as ‘slanted’, I should have explained better. I disagree with your statement that the dislike of Stalin’s methodologies was reason behind the Allie’s lack of involvement. This is not from my own personal opinion, but from professors, research, and documented historical analysis. As for the ‘slanted’ factor, it is a simple fact that when it comes to generally taught history, thus everything that is presented in school textbooks, most western publishings, and even other forms of media, such as that presented on History, they do tend to take a very biased approach. Not that there is anything wrong with this, as it is to be expected. My point was simply that there should not be a bias. You interpreted this desire of unbias as support for the Soviet view. I never once stated that Soviets were correct, and Allies were wrong, but I do know that both sides did consider their own priorities and wishes first and foremost. The fact that they had little like of Stalin was really not the determining factor as to why they did not intervene.
Examples please? My rants and voiced dislikes regarding 1/48 scale armor cast aside, which were voiced rudely, there have been few examples where I would have come accross as ‘insolent’. Simply put, I do not put myself in the position of shutting someone down, through comments such as yours, ie I would not tell people to “get off their high horse”
Again, simply because I give one argument supporting Soviets, does not mean that I am ignorant to the rest of the situation. I’m sorry to say, but you have not demonstrated any clearer or firmer a grasp on the realities of history than I have.
I’m not going to waste any more of my time or FSM’s bandwidth arguing history and manners on a hobby board with you. You’ve had the issue explained to you. Whether you understand it and are willing to learn from it is up to you.