...rare color pic?

A while back there was some good discussion concerning the colors used on 501st Tiger II’s during the batle of the Bulge, particularly the colors used on the turret numbers of the three companies of the battalion and the HQ Tigers. TMN1 had some great info. he posted in that thread. I’m sure these have been seen before but thought with all the KT talk going around it was worth a revisit. Pic is also useful for camo colors…

I couldn’t find the original thread to post this pic in so I started a new one. If this pic is original it is very cool in that it confirms that some KT (3rd company) had blue turret numbers outlined in what appears to be yellow (or white):

Obviously the bottom right pic is a post-war paint job…

A 501st KT modeled (2nd company):

Wartime pics of unit at BOB:

Hey Manny! We must be thinking the same or something tonight! Did ya see my thread on the color phtos?![(-D]

That is some provocative evidence to mull over! It certainly LOOKS “original” to me?! (but I’ve been wrong before!!![see my new thread[:-^][(-D]])

I wonder when it was taken exactly???

Look at how faded the Dark Yellow is—it’s almost TAN!

The car in the background of the upper right photo looks like a late '60’s Ford or Mercury.Gives one a good idea of when that pic was taken.

The KT is now at the Patton Museum (restored) while the Tiger I is in Germany (in the process of).

Oh bloody hell, here we go again.

I never doubted the color of turret number 332, that is well known because it is the one in the Patton museum, and it was tested and documented extensively. The Blue with yellow outline was the standard coloring of 3rd company tanks.

Here is a link to the original thread that you were looking for:

/forums/1/835828/ShowPost.aspx#835828

I’ll post a copy of what i wrote in that thread, i still stand by what i said then.

Ok lets clear this up. In late 1944 all Tiger battalions had converted to the standard turret numbering system. The turret number would consist of three digits. The first digit would indicate the company, second digit would indicate the platoon and third digit would indicate which vehicle it was within the platoon, so 222 would 2nd company, 2nd platoon and 2nd vehicle in 2nd platoon (Kurt Sowa’s tank) First company usually had black numbers with white outline, 2nd company usually had red numbers with white outline and 3rd company usually had blue numbers with yellow outline.

Now i say “usually” because especially within the SS units this standard was sometimes broken .

In s.SS.Pz.Abt 501 in the time leading up to the battle of the bulge all the tanks conformed to the numbering standard. The three battalion comand tanks had red with white outline and started with 00 (007, 008 and 009) the company comand tanks was 104 and 105 for first company, 204 and 205 for second company and 304 and 305 for third company. The rest of the tanks followed the numbering system that i have just described.

Most of the tanks also had the color of the numbers that i described but some didn’t- Some vehicles in 1st company had red numbers (134 for an example) and all of first platoon in second company is believed to have had black with white outline. But one thing that we do know for sure, and it is confirmed in almost every book there is about the Kingtiger, is that the 11 or so vehicles that were transfered in from s.Pz.Abt 509 all recieved solid yellow turret numbers, and they were the only ones who had them. The ones we know were 205, 221, 222, 223, 224 and 334. Now this is how Waldemar Trojca describes it in his new book about the Kingtiger, the authors of the various Kingtiger books disagree a bit about what color the different companies in s.SS.Pz.Abt 501 used for their turret numbers at this time … but they all agree about the yellow turret numbers … only the vehicles transfered in from 509 had these, and 222 is one of them.

Ergo, Patrick Stansell’s model in MMIR’s tiger modellling manual is not correct.

Oh, bloody hell to you as well…I wasn’t doubting what you said before; in fact I was confirming what you said by posting that 3rd company Tiger…I just thought it was cool to see a possible original scheme confirming what was discussed…why don’t you relax a little or take up a hobby to sooth your nerves?

Hey guys; CHILL!

TMN1, you’ve done admirable and accurate research, but I’m just curious to know, what do you attribute the blue color on the KT’s numbers in the photos to be from—a repainting? The paint on that tank in the photo certainly looks prety accurate and properly “weathered” IMHO. In other words, it looks far too “accurate” for ne of Aberdeen’s notoriously “goofy” paint schemes, IMO.

What do you think? Is it possible that there were exceptions t the rule, or guidelines discovered through your research? I’m nt taking sides. I’m just curious as to what you think?[swg]

Sorry, the “oh bloody hell” remark was just my bad impression of a Monty Python line, guess the fact that english is only my second language didn’t make that very clear. Oh and im very relaxed and my nerves are fine, otherwise i wouldn’t have the job that i have.

Hmm sorry but im not entirely sure what you mean !!

The 2 top pictures and the one on the bottom left is of 332 in it’s original condition, the way it looked when it was captured. I have some B&W pics of it somewhere that supports this.

The discussion is about Patrick Stansell’s (and others) models of 222 … not 332. It has been proved by a number of WWII german armor experts (Jean Restayn, Waldemar Trojca, Wolfgang Schneider and Thomas L. Jentz just to name a few) that 222 among others were transfered to s.SS.Pz.Abt 501 from s.Pz.Abt 509 in preparation for the Ardennes offensiv and these tanks had solid yellow turret numbers.

Does this answer your question ?? If not im affraid you have to rephrase it.

There are no sides here, guys. After re-reading all the posts on this subject, everyone is in agreement.

I think Manny just started a new post about it, re-stating some of the already-posted research and firing up a second conversation with TMN1 about it, because he figured it was kinda far down the line on the other thread, and deserved its own spot.

That’s my take on it, anyway. If I’m wrong, try not to shoot me in the crossfire. [C):-)]

You nailed it jthurston…no hard feeling towards anyone on my end…

Well, I mean, your argument seems to make TOTAL sense as to what we should EXPECT to be the acccurate colors of the numbers, but I guess that maybe I want to believe that that photo is authentic so badly (cuz it sure would be cool to say "Wow, there’s the ORIGINAL colors!) that I’m asking you essentially “how do you explain those blue numbers then?” [:-^]

Do you think they were indeed repainted? Or could it possibly be that these blue numbers were somehow a mis-reading or mis-painting of the original “orders” and could they POSSIBLY be correct?

not on mine either … like i said, english is only my second language so sometimes i don’t get the tone right or use a bad choice of words, and iahev been around on forums like this for far to long to take anything personal, it’s not worth it, and if you give people a chance you will often find that you just misunderstood a remark.

…doog, I beleive he is agreeing that 3rd Company KT’s did have the blue numbers:

QUOTE: "Oh bloody hell, here we go again.

I never doubted the color of turret number 332, that is well known because it is the one in the Patton museum, and it was tested and documented extensively. The Blue with yellow outline was the standard coloring of 3rd company tanks."

So those pics could be very well original sceme and numbers! In fact, I believe they are original colors!

Ok !! What blue numbers ?? The ones on 332 or the ones on the model of 222 ?

The ones on 332 are totaly correct, the ones on the model of 222 are not. The pictures of 222 that Mansteins post and which i posted more of in the thread that i linked to shows the turret of 222 close up and clearly shows turret numbers in a solid color, i.e there is no outline. This can only mean that they were yellow. The picture below on the page that Manstein posts a scan of, has turret numbers with an outline, but it is not 222, it is one of the battalion command tanks. I can find out which in one of my books, but to the best of my memory i think it’s 009. It would have been red with a white outline.

I am quite sure that they are.

Ok im gonna find some pics of 332 in one of my books of how it looked shortly after it was captured.

What worried me about all of this is that there would have been more than one 222 or 332, that may have looked axactly the same except for the numbers. There would have been differences in the camo, of course, and those differences may have been huge or miniscule, depending on how far removed the units were from each other, or how far removed the individual tanks were from each other (as in, date and location of manufacture). So that might further complicate the issue, yes?

EDIT: Not manufacture. Field service. Numbers weren’t applied at manufacture, were they?

As an aside:

TMN1, I had no idea English isn’t your first language. You type it better than I do. [#toast]

Well im a dane and Danish is my main language and i still live in Denmark but im an aircraft mechanic so much of what i read at work is in english.

Apart from that. You are quite right. In the later part of the war, there would have been several 222’s and 332’s in different units and it can be difficult to tell them apart sometimes. But 222 from s.SS.Pz.Abt 501 is quite easy to distinguish of you can see the left side of the turret, it has a quite obvious band of dark yellow going the side just behind the turret number. It is also 222 you see in the very well known pictures of fallshirmjägers hitching a ride on the back of a Tiger II in the begining of the campaign and some of them are talking to a guy on a motorcycle.

And here are the promised pics of 332 … B&W but maybe you will find them helpful.

332 had Chassis #280243 and turret production number 280091

…wow…that means that this pic of a KT (all pics except lower right) is most probably still in it’s original wartime colors and markings when this pic was snapped…now that is cool…in fact, I would think that if it had been repainted, the colors and scheme would have been brighter and neater…COOL !

MANY APOLOGIES TMN1!!! There was a time lag between when I was typing that last post/question of mine, and when I posted it–I got distracted and didn’t post it for a few minutes and a few posts snuck in between the one I was replying to (yours) and my last one.

Likewise–I misread your excellent point about that tank being THREE-THIRTY-2! I have no excuse–I had some hard cider last night?!–for being so inattentive! I completely do concur with you about your research being the best and latest information on the subject, and will build my #222 in yellow numbers until I read some convincing evidence that that is in error!

Sorry I couldn’t post til now–I was teaching students…[{(-_-)}]

Wow this thread moved to page 2 in hurry, i almost couldn’t find it again.

No need to apologize. There was a lot of posts made in a short time here, it would be easy to miss some information. Turret numbers, camo scheme’s and individual tank caracteristics as a science in itself. I have spent a decade researching Tiger tanks and have 40 books about Tiger tanks, but the only reason i know so much about s.SS.Pz.Abt 501 turret numbers is that i did a lot of research prior to building 222. One can only contain so much knowledge in ones head, and often i will have to go through my books again before answering a question here on the forum.

[:D][:D][:D][:D][tup] Yeah,I usuallly do that too, if I’m realy passionate about something…but sometimes I just post bone-head mistakes! [:-^][(-D] I appreciate your research on the beast!