Question for the weathering gods - dot filters

Modeling Subjects Armor
1

Hey guys,

Usually, I only do light weathering on my armor, just some pastel, maybe the occassional pin wash, to replicate a fluid spill.

Anyway, I recently built a 1/35 ZSU-23-4 Shilka and decied I’d like to try a few new techniques (have to start somewhere, right?). First new technique was hard-edged camo. Went ok - I base coated in enamel, and the other 2 colrs were done in acrylics. The second technique I wanted to try, was the dot filter, that I’ve seen people do.

So, I read doog’s tutorial (or so I thought) and I can’t figure out what’s going wrong. First, the turpenoid is eating through the acrylics, even though they’ve been dry for well over a week. Second, the dots just turn into a brown, gloppy, mess and look nothing like what I see in the pictures (in the tutorial). They don’t look streaky, even though I’m only pulling the brush in one direction. It looks like I mist coated with a clear brown. I was much happier with an un-weathered tank, than I am with this mess.

Thankfully, I’ve only ruined a small area of the AFV, so I can go backwards from this point, if need be. But I’d really like to know, where the heck I went wrong.

Any pointers, tips, suggestions or prayers, would be greatly appreciated.

-Fred

2

Are you using Turpentine? If so, that crap is nasty and I think I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about.

You need to ensure you are using paint thinner for oil-based paints (made with mineral spirits).

This is my best guess as to what happened. HERE are some other possible problems: Your base coat of paint isn’t acrylic (what brand of paints are you using? are you absolutely positive those are acrylics?). Also, are you absolutely sure the oil paints you are using for the oil dots are actually oil paints, and not something water-based?

Sorry if some of these questions insult your modeling ability, but I believe 'twas necessary to ask all of the questions that could lead to a possible solution.

3

My first try with a dot filter was easy and actually fun. It worked out well .The answer here is material compatibility ,as said in the prior answer . I used Model Master enamels, and artists oils with mineral spirits, the odorless as it seems to be less volatile. Here are a few shots:

And the big finish…

4

Hey buddy,

The good old dot-filter eh? Karl really opened a can of worms when he posted his tutorial as I’m still trying to get it right too! I’m nearly there.

Ryan asked all the questions but I wondered are you putting any sort of barrier between the acrylic basecoat and the dot filter (ie a glosscoat) before slapping on the filter.

If our Turps are anything to go by then your lucky it’s just the paintwork that’s been messed up and not the plastic itself. We usually use Turps (or Parafin) to clean Creosote brushes!

You need QUALITY oils for any oil work. I learned that. I bought a budget pack of oils when I first started building armour and used White (Mineral) Spirits to make a wash - it was awful.

I then tries Windsor & Newton Oils along with Windsor & Newton Artists White Spirit and it was perfect.

Keep practicing but remember to protect your Acrylic basecoat. I’d get some old build or even plastic Styrene sheet and paint it up as normal with your usual colours and try dot filters on that first. I wouldn’t recommend practicing on a new model (been there done that and shed tears for doing so) [;)]

For starters you could try some Raw Umber rust streaks - they look great and are dead simple. Put a tiny dot of Umber Oil near a rivet head etc and use your brush, humidified (ie just slightly damp), not soaked, in Spirits, to ‘drag’ the oil down to mimic a watery, rusty run from the rivet. Very effective. Personally I’d try & master the simpler things like this than the ever tricky dot filter!

Keep at it but do away with the Turps ASAP - NASTY!

Hope this helps,

ATVB

Ben [t$t]

5

Hey guys,

Not insulted at all [H]

So, to answer a few of the questions, I’m using a combination of Windsor & Newton and Grumbacher artist oil paints. I’m using turpenoid thinner, for oil paints. The base paints are definitely enamel (Model Master) and acrylic (Tamiya).

I’m not using a barrier between the base and the wash. According to doog’s tutorial, he doesn’t like using Future. He did mention rattle can dullcote. I’m wondering if it’s a lacquer based dullcote and it’s acting as a barrier between the thinner and the base coats…[^o)].

This is why I should to aircraft.

-Fred

6

Fred - I am sure Karl will be around shortly but lets do this in bullet points

  • Paint model with acrylic paint no barrier needed.
  • If you Paint the model in enamel, you will need a barrier coat . Future is a good barrier coat
  • Dot filter solvent…use CLEAN CLEAR mineral spirts or Tupernoid. If you use turpernoid it is te stuff in te BLUE can.
  • You can use artist oils either W&N or the MIG oils. You can also use enamel paint like Model Master

It sounds like you had a solvent problem. Don’t be discouraged…it is good to try new things…if the world was perfect we would all be board

Rounds Complete!!

7

I would also like to ask some questions.

I paint all my models with one of the three, Tamiya, MM Acryl and Vallejo. Vallejo is used mostly for figures but sometimes I’ll use some on a part of a AFV.

I have a full set of Mig’s 502 Abteilung modeling oils and the 502 Odourless Turpentine.

My qusetion is can I use the 502 oils with their turpentine on the acrylic paints or should I use something else with the 502 oils?

8

TurpenTINE is a stroger solvent mix and may cause problems with acrylic finish. I would use TurpONID or clear clean mineral spirts.

Rounds Complete!!

9

That’s your problem. Or at least one of them. You need to use solely acrylics on your base coat if you don’t want to put a barrier between that and your washes. Enamel paints are soluble in non-polar (oil-based) solvents, such as turpenoid. Acrylic paints are soluble in polar solvents (water, alcohol)… so your turpenoid is dissolving your enamels, but it SHOULD leave your acrylic untouched. Is it removing even the acrylic, or just the enamel?

10

Hey guys,

To address some of the issues, I’m using Weber Turpenoid Natural, in a small, clear, plastic bottle. I’ve never seen any reference to this blue can / green can stuff. But from what I’ve seen, the stuff I’m using is the equivalent of the green can. I’m assuming this is my full problem.

Everyone keeps saying that the turpenoid will attack the enamel, but not the acrylic - my experience has been the complete opposite - on multiple occassions. I’ve used raw umber oil and turpenoid as a wash on several aircraft and the turpenoid has always caused issues with the acrylics. On this build, where I’m using a base color of enamel with acrylic for the camo colors, it’s the camo colors that are wearing off. The enamel base color is perfectly fine.

I just repainted the acrylic camo that was washed away, so I need to give that a few days to dry. In the mean time, I’ll try to hunt down this turpenoid in a blue can. Does anyon know if Michael’s carries it? They’re the only “hobby” store we have around these parts.

Thanks again, everyone. I hope using this blue can stuff, works, as I’d really like to give this dot filter technique, a fair shot.

And for all those who have the time, material and spare plastic, try the green can stuff on acrylics and enamels - it’s the complete opposite results from what’s being posted. I wonder if the blue can will eat through enamels, but not acrylics [^o)].

-Fred

11

WOW, I have never had the problem you describe - of the Turpenoid attacking acrylics. Hmmmm, definately a conumudrum.

As far as Michaels - yes, you should be able to find Turpenoid (in the blue can) in the paint section of Michaels. That is where I get mine.

Good luck!

12

Well, I have a happy little update; I had some time, so I ran over to Michael’s and lo and behold, they had the turpenoid in the blue can (they also had rolls of photo backdrop paper, so [:D]).

So, I tried some and, thankfully, it doesn’t seem to attack either the acrylic NOR the enamel. Perhaps this is how Doog gets away without a barrier coat. It looks like I’m on my way to my first dot filter [H].

Look for my Shilka thread, in a week, or so, to see the end results.

Thanks for the suggestions everyone.

-Fred

13

Why don’t you just use water for thinning the oils?!? W&N makes good quality oils which you can thin with just water - that’s what I use (and the dots are about the only thing I can do right every time). Those oils are a bit expensive, about $7 a tube, but I grabbed a small W&K kit with the 40% off cupon at HobbyLobby, so it came to about $20 for 12 colors.

I also use Tamiya acrylics without any coating - I do just the basic weathering, i.e. the dots right now as I work my way up the latter, and I never had a problem with solving the oils in water. Heck, I have hard time getting the fresh paint off my fingers with soap and a hard brush :slight_smile:

Oh, and by the way, those W&N oils will probably last me a life-time. In order to do all the grime dots and lines on a 1/35 tank I use a toothpick’s tip worth of oil and thin it with about 20ml of water. I am not joking!

14

Fred,

I apologize for getting in on this thread so late; I’ve been working on a troublesome old NASCAR Torino–yup, my heart is in Armor, but I like to get my hands dirty “in the garage” sometimes! [:$]

Ironically, I think that perhaps my Auto modeling may provide some insight into your problem? Specifically, I"m wondering if the use of enamel as a base coat is causing issues with your Tamiya overcoat?

In the world of Auto modeling, the trend has been away from enamels (in favor of quick-drying lacquers) because of their long “gassing out” curing time. In fact, the general rule for a great finish is to wait several weeks before even trying to polish out an enamel finish.

Enamels release gas as they cure. You can generally tell if they’re close to “finished” by their smell. The gas has an odor, and I’m wondering if it may be the leaking-out of this gas which is causing an issue with the curing or durability of your top Tamiya coat?

Tamiya is not actually a mere acrylic; it’s actually an acrylic-lacquer hybrid, which is why it’s so tough. That’s why I don’t use a sealer in most cases; you don’t need it. It’s pretty durable. Another thing that may be an issue though is the fact that you may be getting adhesion problems over the enamels if the enamels have a smoother, semi-glossy sheen? Tamiya paint will not adhere all that well to a glossy finish if you do a lot of abusive weathering techniques over them.

Those are good oils you are using, but I’m not sure about your thinner. I use regular garden-variety “Low Odor Mineral Spirits”. You MUST get the “low odor” kind, as it’s distilled more so than regular mineral spirits and therefore weaker in caustic property… I know that turpentine is a pretty caustic solvent, but I don’t know about turpenoid? You said you’re using Turpenoid “Natural”–that may be a stronger form of the stuff, i.e., not as distilled, and therefore stronger? I don’t know about the “Blue” stuff either, but if it works for you, you win! [:)]

When I do the dot weathering thang, I apply the “dots” with a toothpick or in SMALL dots ONLY. If you apply too much “dot”, you will definitely make a mess. Make sure you clean your brush often, between passes. I use copious amounts of thinner, and always dab off excess with a soft facial tissue. You want to leave a barely-perceptible sheen of colors on the model; it’s really , really subtle.

MIG’s weathering thiners and filters are enamel-based. You will notice that they take a lot longer to dry than a standard wash, and can be manipulated for hours afterward. I use them with the low-odor spirits usually, but have dabbled with their thinners as well. But as I said; they take longer to dry.

By the way, I don’t like to weather over gloss coats as some guys do. I think that it causes the wash to slide off too easily; I like to have it “stick” to the flat finish a little more, for control’s sake. I HAVE used some Future on my Torino decals and windows, however, in case anyone’s listening! ha ha! [:O]

HERE is a solvent comparison chart. You can see that Low Odor Mineral Spirits have a lower “KB Value” (solvent power) than the others.

Hope this has helped! [:D]

15

Karl,

Thank you so much for checking in and offering your advice [H]. Do you apply thinner to the model first, then add color, or just color, straight to the model? I’ve tried both way and seem to get better dispersion when I add thinner, first.

I really think the problem was in the “natural” turpenoid. It’s almost like a thin honey, in consistency. Turned the oils into a mud-like goop, instead of removing them. The blu can stuff, works much, much better and doesn’t affect either the acrylic, nor the enamels.

As soon as photoshop starts working agin, on my PC, I’ll post a picture of where I’m at, so far.

-Fred

16

Think you have it now. Your problem was the “natural”, I had the same thing happen to me awhile back. Now I use the “BLUE” can of turpenoid and I have had NO PROBLEMS no matter what kind of paint applied to. I have used it on both Model Master enamels and Tamiya acrylic’s and a few other others. Before filtering I do usually spray a coat of dullcoat over the base colors first so that I do not remove any enamel paint if doing a heavy weathering.

17

Fred, I’m glad I was able to offer something beyond the fine advice already given.

It sounds like you’ve definitely got the problem identified; that sounds like a logical conclusion.

I think that when I did the FIRST oil dot attempt, that I did NOT use a “base” of thinner, but have since moved in that direction. It seems to prevent the oil paint from “staining” the point at which it contacts the model.

I’d be interested to see those photos.

By the way, not sure if you know it, but as a tangential matter; the “Oil Dot” method was conceived of and brought into prominence with Spanish modelers who theorized a rich, warm chromatic patina to the models which theoretically reflected the way that the bright Spanish sun affected the perception of color i both refraction and reflection. That’s why you use primary colors, which ordinarily would be anathema to armor weathering. Stay away from browns and umbers; save those for pin washes and basic overall “dirtying” washes.

Your experience reminds me of when I built the USS Cutty Sark sail-rigged ship. A total neophyte at that point, I weathered the plastic sail using oil paint cut with linseed oil. It literally took about three months for the sails to dry, lol! [:O]…[:D]

18

The very first time I tried a dot filter, I used every oil color I had on hand - yellow, blue, red, white, umber and black. It made the God-ugliest shade of brown, that wouldn’t come off. I ended up soaking that thing in Gunze Sangyo Mr. Color Thinner, for a week, before it was clean enough to start over.

This time, I staed with red, blue, yellow, white and light green that I mixed up. I think next time, I’ll go with much less red, as it tends to stain and tint everything, an ugly shade of pink.

Anyway, here’s a pic I tokk this morning - it’s a combo of the dot filter and a pin wash of raw umber

Give me an honest reaction, as I’d really like to get a lot better at this.

-Fred

19

WOW, man—honestly, I have NO problem with that baby! A little bit of judicious dry0brushing and I’d be downright excited about where that was going! [:D]

20

Really? Thanks, man - that really means a lot, especially coming from you [:D].

I was thinking of doing, some light chipping, around the “soft” metal parts and then around the road wheels. Last time I did dry-brushing on armor (an M4A3 Sherman), I got lambasted because “armor doesn’t chip” or so I’ve been told. What would be the most realistic areas to get chipped/faded/worn paint?

And do you think I should use some dry pigments to add another layer of depth, to the weathering?

Thank again, Karl.

-Fred