Hello, all ngotb. I am looking for information about mounting the 37mm anti-tank gun on the forecastle of PT-109. Generally where to spot the axle. How far aft from the point of the box and how far forward of the deckhouse. I’m am building the 1/72 scale revell kit.
Thank you,
Flattop57
Given the description in Donovan’s book PT 109, the gun’s dimensions, the fixed objects on the fore deck of the boat, etc., it was probably in approximately this location.
Al Ross
If it was not fixed to the deck, might it have been a foot or so further astern, to brace the trail against a pair of those objects (I don’t know what they are) on the deck? That should have allowed the AT gun’s recoil system to do its job without any movement of the carriage (and piece) relative to the deck.
If it was fixed to the deck, then please ignore what I wrote.
It was not fixed to the deck sir.
Those “objects” are simply covers over the deadlights at those locations. They would not have provided any support for anything.
Al Ross
Interesting - are those planks beneath the AT gun? Regardless, would it have been held in place by friction alone?
As I recall from the book the planks were secured to the deck as per Al’s drawing and straps were fastened around the axles to hold the gun in place. It is often modeled with ropes from the gun to the toe rail but I don’t recall if this was described in the book. This was a temporary solution until a more permanent mounting could be constructed. The boat was lost before a permanent mounting could be constructed.
Dave
Yes, it was mounted on two 2X4s …
From Donovan’s PT 109, p.97:
“…When the Higgins boat came alongside, they hauled the anti-tank gun and a couple of two-by-eight planks aboard. They laid the two planks along either side of the foredeck. Then, they lifted the gun, the wheels of which had been removed, and placed it in position with its axles resting on the planks. After that they waited for some carpenters to come out from Lumberi to nail down the planks and bracket the axles to them…”
p. 112:
“…The Japanese dive bombers had wiped out the plans for permanently fastening the 37-millimeter gun and the planks to the foredeck during the afternoon. Kennedy still hoped to try the gun if a target presented itself during the night, but lest the rock of the boat topple it overboard, he ordered the men to lash it to the deck with a rope. He also had them lash down the planks, a small chore for which they would give large thanks later on…”
Al Ross
Hello all, thank you for all your replies. I had planed to mount it a little farther aft because I served on a “small boy” in the 70’s and figured that much weight that far forward would cause the bow to dip under deeply. But found out that it only weighed 910 pounds so I guess that would be irrelevant. The drawing helped tremendously. I am planning on using WEM’s axle and trails and Hasegawa’s barrel, shield and breech mech and add the brass PE’s. What does everyone think about that? One more question; did the aft 20mm mount have shoulder braces and a harness, I seem to remember from the movie that it does, any ideas.
Respects;
Flattop57(I served on 3 carriers during a ten year carrier)
Fine Art Models produces a very nice (for $7,500 it should be) 1/20 model of PT109 which shows the 37mm gun mounted very much as Al Ross’ drawing shows:
There are ten photos which show the model in detail, nos. 8 and 9 show the 37mm mounted on the bow, and if you click on the photo in the box you will get a larger version.
The model appears to follow Al’s plans pretty closely, but Fine Art has been known to make some errors in the past.
It had shoulder rests, yes. As for the ‘harness’ (straps)? I don’t know, and that’s something that a definitive answer can be given for; in action, would you want be ‘tied’ to a gun? Especially in close-quarters action?
One word of advice; do not use the movie as a guide …
Dr. Ross, me and books are your best resources - also, PT BOATS, INC too.
Garth
The overwhelming evidence shows that PT-109 did not have a mast. For whatever reason it’s gone. There is a photo of the 109 prior to Kennedy and it did not have a mast then either. Fine Art Models makes some nice models but issues I see with this other than the mast…
Windscreen should be painted over.
Warheads on torpedoes should be bronze.
The windows on the chart house and day cabin would not be framed out.
Depth charge was probably green,
37mm gun should be lashed down, probably to the toe rails.
The pin that secures the 20mm aft was broken and the gun was tied to the depression rail.
The gun tubs look kind of goofy painted black. They should match the rest of the boat.
Here’s a photo of PT-109 prior to JFK. Note there are no depth charges installed at this time.
I believe that the mast was hinged at the base to fold back flat on the day cabin roof. Is there evidence that the 109’s mast was removed as opposed to being folded flat?
Yes. The cover of the National Geographic book on the 109 clearly shows from the starboard side of the boat that there is no mast when JFK had the boat. The photo above which I stole from another web site shows 109 prior to JFK and there is no mast. Other than the transport photos you will not find a real 109 photo with a mast.
Listening to what vets had to say, It was not uncommon for boats to have lost these original masts during operations for a variety of reasons.
I think the boat looks better with the mast, but if you want to build an accurate 109 the mast must not be included.
Dave
Whoa, whoa, whoa … Whoa.
The 109 had a mast.
Warhead colors on PTs is subjective topic. I don’t really know what the colors of the warheads of the torpedoes in the Mark VII tubes were. Maybe you can contact PT BOATS INC or the National Archives for a more definitive answer.
No, I would guessamate that the depth charges themselves were either gray or left natural metal. Although, I do have a color shot of a 77 footer from Melville and the depth charges and the racks were painted to match its deck.
Garth
You’re right, they were.
“Had” being the operative word. We’re going to disagree on this one Garth. When JFK had the boat there was no mast to be found. The photo previously posted of the 109 showed no mast and this was prior to JFK. The photo on the jacket of “Collision With History The Search for John F. Kennedy’s PT109” (3rd photo down) came from the Kennedy Library as I understand. That photo clearly shows no mast raised or lowered. The book jacket is much more clear. You can even see the helmets strapped to the rails on the day cabin.
Here’s a photo of the 61 boat, a 78’ Elco that is said to be tied up next to the 109. The crew member of this boat said he was tied up to the 109 most of the time and claims the boat on the starboard side of the 61 boat is in fact the 109.
The first photo of the 109 shows the dark green scheme and the bronze wareheads on the torpedo tubes. The boat tied up on the port side of the 61 boat shows depth charges painted the same color as the 109 with a bronze center. In the 2nd photo something else interesting is the canvas spray cover on the inside of the depression rail. Very unusual.
That photo on the cover of Ballard’s book … I know it well and, to be quite frank, I think it is far too damaged to be of any use as a ‘go to’ reference (and I know that I will catch fire for that statement but I’m sorry, that’s my opinion and I have a right to have it).
As for the torpedoes? That’s a color shot which is sixty-some-odd years old - how can we know if the colors didn’t degrade somewhat and what appears to be bronze isn’t actually red or another color entirely. I will agree that it does look to be bronze.
One point that I’ve been told by people who know metals and coloring … if you were to smear grease onto a natural metal surface - that the surface will appear bronze in photos … so.
The debate continues …
But, in my opinion (and it’s ONLY an opinion) - the 109 did have a mast while under JFK.
Garth
FSM did a real nice article on the PT 109 a few years back, and they had the gun secured with rope. I don’t recall there being anything else holding it down but a lot of rope.
gary