Photo: Red-Tailed Stang for Jeeves

Modeling Subjects Aircraft
1

I picked this shot up recently as part of a small group of photos. Initially I wasn’t totally sure as to which unit this Stang came from; the auction image wasn’t that clear. But I was pleasantly surprised to find that it’s a Red-Tail Pony from the 332nd FG.

I’ve also included this P-39Q, serial 44-3005, from the same group of photos. I think it likely that this is one of the 75 P-39Qs which served with the 332nd FG for a short period of two months in early 1944. Whether it’s a 332nd ship or not, it’s an interesting shot of the fifth P-39Q-20-BE built because the aircraft is sans main gear doors and gun pods. The pods were sometimes omitted on this block of the P-39Q and gear doors were sometimes removed for a number of reasons. The 332nd operated their P-39s out of Italy in the spring of 1944; the mud encountered at Italian airfields was quite troublesome and clogged things up easily. So it’s possible that the doors were removed because of this.

And then there’s this lackluster photo of a Gooney Bird. Nothing too hot, but a neat shot just the same. There is one interesting feature, however… the national insignia under the wing is crooked…

Fade to Black…

2

of course the 332nd was the only fighter group to carry the “Red Tail” and they carried the distinction of not having lost a single bomber during escort missions of course everyone I am talking about the Tuskegee Airmen of the 332nd which carried the Red Tail and they were in Italy in 44 though with that picture I am not sure if it is a B model or a C model.

3

from my understanding, P-51 B and P-51 C were essentially the same aircraft. They were just built at different places (much like B-25 C and D). In the P-51B/C run, they started adding the malcom hood canopies. If I’m wrong I hope someone will correct me!
Darwin, nice photos. I really enjoy seeing pictures from your collection. It’s just neat to see that kind of stuff.

4

I believe the main external distinction of the P-51C was the addition of the dorsal filet to add additonal area to help with stability. This was retro fitted to earlier B’s so you have to go by serial numbers. I don’t think the Malcom Hood was a factory “addition” but added at depot level maintenance and lower in the theater of operations.

5

Some answers, corrections, confirmations and additional info for the above…

The P-51B and P-51C were indeed pretty much identical externally. The P-51B was built at NAA’s Inglewood plant while the P-51C was built at NAA’s Dallas facility. As Melgyver said, the serial number is usually the only way to distinguish one from another.

The dorsal fillet has become linked in the minds of many (including myself for a time) almost exclusively to the P-51C. But it was retrofitted to both P-51Bs and Cs, although it seems that more Cs may have received the fillet than Bs. I do not know if any fillets were fitted to the B/C at the factory. I seem to recall a verbal source claiming that this was the case, but I have no evidence to support the claim. My understanding is that the fillet for the B/C was introduced after production of the P-51D/K began. If this is the case, then no (or few) P-51B/Cs would have been rolling off the line and thus it’s unlikely that the fillets would have been added at the factory. However, I’m Mr. Warhawk not Mr. Mustang, so I could be entirely wrong. If you guys really want the dope on this issue, I can contact Mr. Mustang…

The ‘Malcolm Hood’ was fitted to both P-51Bs and Cs and was not an identifying feature of either variant. Many Allison-engined Stangs had them as well. The origin of the ‘Malcolm Hood’ is also cloudy in the minds of some, but fortunately I do have the dope on this one!

The canopy that we’ve come to know as the ‘Malcolm Hood’ is thought by many to have been a British design based on a similar canopy developed for the Spitfire. The latter is more or less true, but the former is entirely false. The canopy in question was designed by NAA engineers who were working in England and was first fitted to an RAF Mustang IA at RAF Henlow. The canopy proved to be satisfactory and was put into production by R. Malcolm Company Ltd. in England, being fitted to aircraft as they became available. There’s more to that story but this bit is getting too long already…

One last thing for RadMax… my name’s Steve, not Darwin… [;)][:P] (but ‘hey you’ will do…)

Glad ya’ll like these photos…

Fade to Black…

6

Steve,

I forgot to thank you for sharing the old pictures. Neat stuff! If I ever find the time and knowledge I’ll try posting some of my Dad’s old pictures.

7

actually Steve the Malcom Hood was a RAF design originally used in the spitfire Mk IX (I believe but it might have been the MK IV or even as early as the Mk II) but the NAA engineers took the design and used it on the Mustang by increasing the size of the canopy to fit the wider body of the Mustang which is considerably larger than the Spitfire (the Cockpit of a Spitfire is considered cramped compared to the Mustang)and the main purpose of the Malcom hood was the added visibility it afforded the pilot since the original canopy did not afford a complete 360 degree view. BTW the original P-51B/C Canopy was the same design as that on the P-38 Lightning . and everyone if you look closely you can notice that in the photo of the Red Tailed Tuskegee Airmen P-51 that the red tail section was recently painted in the photo due to the lack of the tail numbers which would have been added after the paint was dry. Oh and the Malcom in the name Malcom Hood canopy was a RAF Pilot who originally came up with the design and well as they say the rest is history. I’ll have to re check everything with my Squadron Spitfire in action book.

8

What kinda stuff are we talking about here? I’d like to see whatever you have!

As I stated, the canopy used on the P-51 was BASED on the canopy used on the Spitfire. Actually, ‘inspired’ would be more accurate. Yes, both are vaguely similar in appearance and were borne of the same idea. But they are two different designs.

The Malcolm canopy used on the P-51 was designed by NAA engineers working in the UK, a fact confirmed by official RAF records. On pages 35-36 of ‘The Mustang Story’, author Ken Delve quotes an official RAF test report :

“In December a Mustang IA was with AFDU for trials on a new canopy arrangement: ‘In accordance with instructions from Air Ministry (DAT) reference 11800, trials have been carried out on a Mustang IA aircraft, AG618, fitted with a sliding hood. This hood has been designed by North American representatives in the Country and fitted to the aircraft by RAF Henlow.’”

To the average layman I suppose the two canopies could be considered to be the same design, but I suppose an average layman could not be expected to think otherwise. Designing is more than saying, 'Hey, I like the canopy on that Spitfire over there… let’s make one for the Mustang." Designing that canopy for the P-51 was a helluvalotta work; they didn’t just scale up the Spit canopy and plop it on a Mustang. Not only did they have to design an entirely new canopy to fit the airframe, but the airframe had to be significantly modified to accommodate the new canopy.

As to the similarities between the Spitfire and P-51 canopies, there are actually very few. The shapes and sizes are different; the attachment to the aircraft is different; the framing is different. Matter of fact, while the Spitfire canopy has framing all around, the P-51 canopy has framing on the bottom edges only. Most modelers paint the forward and rear edges of their P-51 Malcolm canopies the same color as the paint scheme of the aircraft, or they represent them as being natural metal. Ain’t so… there was no framing on these edges; they were unframed and should be left clear.

All that the Spitfire and P-51 Malcolm canopies had in common is the fact that they were both bulged in order to improve all-round visibility and they were both manufactured by R. Malcolm Company, Ltd.

I’ve heard this too. Perhaps the original idea did come from a pilot, as these types of improvements and modifications usually do arise as result of a professional’s input. I really dunno for sure. But if it was an idea from a pilot, it was probably nothing more than that; an idea. And an idea does not make a design.

Also, unless this pilot who allegedly designed the canopy was connected in some way with R. Malcolm Company Ltd, the firm that manufactured these canopies and from whence the oft misspelt name actually came, I’d say that the name connection between this pilot and canopy is just another myth that’s been perpetuated over the years. And there’s been many of those… myths are started, they are perptuated, (sometimes by otherwise credible authors, historians and other ‘authoritative’ types) folks blindly believe them without any additional research of their own and, well, as they say, the rest is history…

I’d check more sources than just one notoriously error-ridden monograph if I were you.

They’re somewhat similar in appearance but they are two entirely different designs with different functionality.

The canopy on the P-51 was entirely hinged, allowing the top panel to swing over to the side and the side panels to swing downward. Separate panes in the side panels were separated by framing and could be rolled back and forth. The top panel had no such framing and was one piece.

The top panel of the canopy on the P-38 was one piece with a frame in the middle and swung backwards. (although some early variants had no frame and swung to the side) The side panels were one piece and rolled down into the fuselage. These sometimes had interior bracing which formed an ‘X’ across the pane.

Other than that they’re both exactly the same…

And everyone, if you look even [b]more[/b] closely you’ll see that there is paint-chipping on the tail… hardly indicitive of a fresh paint job.

I have yet to see a photo of a red-tailed Mustang from the 332nd which has a serial number visible on the tail. It seems that the red was applied and the serial never re-applied. This is not to say that I have seen every photo of every red-tailed Stang out there. And anyone who knows me will say that I am not a braggart, but I’ll unreservedly bet my life that I’ve seen more aircraft photos than the vast majority of folks…

Now, a big ‘attaboy’ goes to the fella who can tell me which unit this particular P-51 served with before it was assigned to the 332nd FG…

Fade to Black…

9

Mel, I didn’t think the fillet was added until after a few planes were made in the “D” line. Here’s a text blurb about the planes

The C-5 seems to have a horsepower increase of 50HP over the B-1 and B-5.
*I found a photo of a C with a fillet… HERE But I believe that that may have been applied as a test model perhaps.

10

They never lost a bomber due to enemy aircraft. Several bombers were shot down by AAA which was not the fault of the 332nd.

11

RadMax8,

You are probably right about the filet being added later, as some of the early D’s didn’t have the filet either and it was only added later. I don’t have a “definitive” book on the Mustang other than the Detail and Scale books. I did find a capiton of a C with the dorsal filet and he said they were rare on B’s and C’s.

Steve,

My Dad’s pictures are nothing special, mainly group pictures under the wings of aircraft, some engine shots of an A-20, a nose shot or two, a tiny picture of an early B-17 which I think is the “Swoose”. Compares to a shot of it in my B-17 book, flag pole and ramp area. Tail shot of an early B-26 Marauder without the lower waist position. Some damaged Japanese planes, one crated. The best is on our Vietnam Unit web page, www.174ahc.org in the “Bio” section. Mel Lutgring. It is a shot of the P-47 D Razorback named “Molly” after my namesake.

I looked through my books on the P-51 and all seem to show a painted frame fore and aft of the Malcom Hood canopy, which is why everyone paints one!

12

Having an eye-witness in the form of a local Tuskegee Airman here in town that I built a model for, the fin fillet were applied in the field to his squadron’s C’s. He flew in the 99th FS.

Steve-- great pics!! There sure aren’t many Tuskegee Airacobra pics out there. As for your challenge-- I can tell you that the Airmen inherited their Jugs from the Checkertail Clan…not sure if the same would be true for their Ponies though…