Why do most Panzer IV J’s have no schurzen? All most all of the pics that i have seen show them with out it. The real dilema is why did they re-instate them for the late model J?
Many also had a mesh schurzen which came out near the end of the war to save on resources. The Dragon kit comes with them. Tamiya doesn’t.
Hi…I am a little confused…do you say that they were made without. ?..if so, that is incorrect…all Js had it…
If you say that they have lost ot.? …well maybe that is because they fell off a lot :)…most likly…more built up areas and trees etc in those areas that the fighting was at the time of issue maybe…eg later in the war…the Germans had been mostly pushed out of the wide open areas of Russia/East by then
AJ
due to it is easy to lost them in action and most of them damage while moving … i guess …futhermore german r fighting a defense war … so they will only need armour at the front not their side or back …
Well, thats what i though. The germans deleted the electical travers for a larger fuel tank on the J. Also, I reckoned that the Germans saved the steel for other things. I mean almost all of them have no skirts. The H’s did, but not the J. Iv’e seen pictures of H’s with half a sideskirt and ones that looked like swiss cheese. I’d think it be a priority to put them on. Why would they make mesh ones to stop round’s? I rather have a solid sheet of steel than some mesh.
In June of 1944, Ausf J was produced and it was very similar to Ausf H with modifications made in order to simplify the production.
The premise behind schurzen is not to stop rounds. They were used to detonate shaped charges before they impacted the turret or the hull…
Perhaps a tanker can chime in and correct me if I’m wrong, but…
Shaped rounds like Panzerfaust (more commonly known as HEAT rounds today), are made of an explosive shaped charge that uses the Neumann effect (a development of the Munroe effect) to create a very high velocity jet of metal in a state of superplasticity that can punch through solid armor.
The jet moves at hypersonic speeds (up to 25 times the speed of sound) its solid material and therefore erodes exclusively in the contact area of jet and armor material. Spacing is critical, as the jet disintegrates and disperses after a relatively short distance, usually well under 2 metres. The jet material is formed by a cone of metal foil lining, usually copper, though tin foil was common during the Second World War.
So basically, what happens is that the cone and jet created by the shaped charge actually punches through armor, but relies on their being a solid surface to actually initiate the piercing of the armor. If there’s any sort of space between the formation of the jet and cone and the solid surface, the effect is dramatically reduced. So schurzen was designed to detonate the rounds before they hit the armor. This basically means you don’t need armor, just something with enough density to detonate the rounds.
BTW, today’s version of schurzen (hey, a poem), is Reactive Armor. Reactive armor works much the same way schurzen did, deflecting the cone and jet of the shaped charge, reducing it’s ability to penetrate the armor.
That make any sense? I’m even confused now…I’m going home. 
Jeff
Even today, us British use Schurzen on our Warriors in Iraq!
Works very well against RPG hits.
Chris
Hi guys…
In fact the skirts were FIRST developed to prevent the russian AT rifle rounds from penertrating the thin side armour.which they could do at very close range…as well a dammage to other weak areas such a tracks , under sponsons etc…3’s 4’s and Panther. were weak in these areas… it was not shaped charges…this IS a common reason given but is incorrect
.The Russians were , lets say. ‘willing’ to put there people in danger as tank killers
It seems a bit harsh, but a lot of the time they were the guys who had offended the comasars and were punnished this way 
.it was only later that they realised they also proved good against the new allied rocket propelled shaped charge weapons (which again the Russians did not like)…and then later they found that the mesh was as good as the flat plate…but at first they used mesh as the plants making the thin 'boiler plate used for the skirts…was over run and the others dammaged…so wire was used as a repalcment… very late Hungarian SPs also used the Thoma type mesh skirts…
As the war in the east got to the built up areas,then the Russians started to use the massive stocks of Panzerfausts taken from the Germans…but again it was not an offensive weaopn and they tended to use them as infantry weapons in house to house fignting such as going thru walls rather than down the street !!
Alasdair
I get your drift. I mean, the russians DID use the bedspring sheilds.
Hi…yep…again, as they reached the close in areas…they lost shed loads of armour to the short range Panzerfaust…even the early ones proved very effective from roof tops /windows.
Estamates are that up to 70% of Russian tanks KOed in Berlin fell to Panzerfausts !!!
Alasdair
Again to the Pz iV J’s, I have a Waffen SS book and it shows a J with only schurzen on one side. It looked really weird.
Ali, what else did the Germans have then? Few anti tank guns and fewer tanks
Hi…sorry for the late answer…
Stugs 3&4…Tiger 1s (about three have been spotted) …maybe 5-10 Tiger II’s, Panthers, both running and dug in as pill boxes and varoius other strange bits of armour…some Shermans reportedly… Puma ACs…HalfTracks and various weapons carriers build on what the could use…Some Pz1s with Drilling mounts etc… All sorts of AT guns…both German and Russian and mines together with the Panzerfaust and the other HC rocket types…
As an intrest…they also used the first AT guides missle as well but the reports are very limmited to field trials on the Oder river area and some say on the Seelow heights battle
Did this a while back…which was fun
http://smallshopeu.com/photo__Rocket.htm
[img=left] http://smallshopeu.com/Rocket%20pics%20page/2rock.jpg[/img=left]
![http://smallshopeu.com/Rocket%20pics%20page/2rock.jpg[/img=left]](http://smallshopeu.com/Rocket%20pics%20page/2rock.jpg%5B/img=left%5D){kind=link}
Most of the Armour was used up at Seelow just proir to the Battle…Street fighting was mainly an Infantry game but at points the Armour was used very effectively to guard the big wide roads that criss cross Berlin…
Hope it helps
Alasdair