Panzer Blues...

Got the idea for this thread in Biffa’s StuG III build thread…An intersting discussion developed as to the true shade of panzer grey. Some say it had a “bluish” tint to it while others maintain that it was much darker, almost black in color…The trend for modelers has gone back in forth from a cool blue to a warmer grey with a hint of red-brown in it. This is a very interesting pic from my Achtung Panzer ref that shows a recovered StuG w/ original panzer grey still on it…what do you think???

Intersting concept, but I wonder how much of the hint of red brown is due to oxidization and/or whatever place (lake, swamp, etc.) it was recovered from.

It sure appears to have a bluish tint.

Actually, the pic I posted supports the “blue” theory…

I agree 100% about the lighter/ bluer shade to panzer gray. But aging and weathering certainly played a major role in what we see here. That particular vehicle is well over 60 years old and most of that is some sort of outdoor clime. I am curious as to what a factory fresh vehicle would look like.

What you say is very true but what we see in the pic is definately a far cry from “almost black” that some feel is the true panzer grey color…I’m in no way implying that the “bluish” color is correct, but it is an interesting debate and a rare view of original paint on a German AFV in a recent picture…there are also some recent pics of German tanks in original ochre, and those colors seem to match what is generally accepted today as the true dark yellow color…

Weather conditions also plays a big role. In direct sunlight the blue tint is accentuated, while in shadows, indoors, it is becoming a dark grey.

See the difference in tint in this two pictures of the same model:

I’m a bit sceptical as to how many conclusions we can draw from a wreck that has been submerged in a river for 65 years. The Eh (Reduction Potential) and pH of the environment within which this vehicle was entombed plays a major role in determining how the paint weathers. Just look at the difference between the rusted upper half and the well preserved lower half. Low Eh and low pH environments, like those found in peat bogs, are famous for their preservation of artifacts. But any set of conditions, over a period of 65 years, is going to have an effect on the appearance of an object, especially something as complex as a mixture of paint.

I think we would need to find some long forgotten Panzer part, still tucked away in it’s original box, in it’s original paint, to really come to any conclusion as to it’s original appearance…and even then, it’s still old.

Interesting pictures… lighting really makes a difference. Nice paintjob![yeah]

My panzer grey vehicles range from the nearly black look to dark blue, and I seem to be largely influenced by box art which direction I go. I know they can’t all be right, and focus on what I think looks good to the casual observer, since the only people that ever see my projects besides me wouldn’t know a Jagdtiger from a Hetzer.

I’ve even succumbed to the temptation to paint a Stuka Fuss and a 251/quad 20 in straight field blue (although the 251 has a heavily weathered whitewash over it.

My photography skills are even less than my modeling skills, so I can’t give you any decent pictures to see what I mean. Anyway, I really like this discussion, because the grey dilemma has had me curious what everybody thinks for quite a a while.

Good points…however, the narrative that goes with the pic states that the lower half of the tank was submerged in peat and mud which helped preserve the colors…the top half was not, thus the rust. Again, there have been several tanks pulled out of rivers and lakes recently in Russia (some linked from this forum) that shows original dark yellow that closely matches what is commonly modeled today. I am not proposing either school of thought is correct, just curious as to what others think. What is your opinion?

It really doesn’t matter, IMO. Because just as dood_dood pointed out so effectively, light and perspective play a real difference. As does scale distortion of light.

Therefore, whether you lighten the Panzer Grey or not, you can justify it as being either “in scael” or “original, correct” with a fair degree of plausibility.

Do be 100% honest, when what we’re doing is so much “Art”, and when we further undertake to weather and wash, tint, filter, and whatnot to the base coat, I am of the honest opinion that debating “true” colors of paints is an interesting diversion, but not really of much value in the end.

True…for example, when I whitewash an ochre panzer, I normally want the ochre to be darker (more yellow) than one that is not whitewashed, just to show more contrast with the white paint…so in that sense, my choice of colors is influenced from an artistical perspective…Same with panzer grey, sometimes the tint of the grey will be determined by what is most pleasing in the context of the build…If you build a dio and want to convey a very cold scene, a bluer tint might be your choice…if you are depicting the June invasion of Russia, a “warmer” grey might be a better choice…Color is a very elusive thing…anyone who matches colors for a living can atest to this—and then the whole type of light factor comes in and complicates matters almost beyond comprehension. However, I wouldn’t dismiss the discussion as useless. For me, these matters are part of the hobby…and the fun… : )

Sorry Manny–I dodn’t mean to sound dismisive–just saying that some people can get so hung up on “correct” shades, that they forget that this is all so subjective, so interpretive, and that in the end, there is no “correct” color–because we can’t even trust the color photos, due to degradation and light variables. I would just hate to see the world of color matching become so dogmatic that it takes on a “rivet counting” aspect.

I lean more towards the exposure to water doing funny things to the paint, not to mention the possibility of mud/minerals/peat changing colors. While peat bogs can be highly preservative in the sense that they are low oxygen environments and thus corrosion and bacterial effects are dramatically reduced, it doesn’t mean the objects are in “factory fresh/pristine” state when pulled out. Take for example the “bog mummies” found in Ireland and Scotland in the late 1990s, every single one of the bodies recovered was exceptionally well preserved but their skin was a dark black color due to the peat and their hair had been turned a bright, almost flourescent, orange color and that color was uniform regardless of age, sex, etc.

While the merits of color photography of the period can be argued as well as lighting/exposure, etc. on just how “true” the colors are represented, actual paint chips/swatches do exist for Panzer Gray as referenced by Jentz and Doyle in Panzer Tracts No. 1-2 published in 2002.

http://www.panzertracts.com/PZfacts.htm

They also included color plates in the PT 2-1, which I’ve scanned below, that show the same swatches. In the above link, they explicitly state that they went to extraordinary lengths to research but also reproduce in print the colors based on actual extant swatches.

I agree that there’s plenty of room for artistic expression and conveying lighting or temperature via the paint finish, but as far as “accuracy” goes, the blue-tint IMHO belongs in the artistic category. Jentz and Doyle are highly reliable/reputable sources for this type of information and the fact that they have actual swatches from the time period to examine is as close as we’ll ever get to the “factory part still in the box” scenario.

Some great discussion here…No worries, doog—I didn’t take any offense of your post. That’s some pretty convincing evidence, Bill.

As Bill O’Riley would say in the no spin zone: “The viewer can decide…”[:D]

While thumbing through an issue of “Armour Modeling” magazine I ran across an interesting set of pics of the same model of a Mk III J in panzer grey. As you can see the SAME model looks like it has a different shade of grey in different pics. I am assuming this has something to do with the lighting used in the photography (perhaps two different sessions under different conditions?)—yet another reason for color variation.

Warmer shade:

Cooler (bluer) shade:

Background and lighting are two critical factors in any color photograph. Depending on the camera used and the settings, you can get dramatically different results. Just take any digital camera for example and shoot a subject against a dark background, make no adjustments whatsoever to the camera itself, then shoot the same subject against a lighter background. You’ll think you’ve got photos of two different models in the end. [;)]

I love this discussion :slight_smile:
And yes; I am a nerd…

Tiger 123 was factory fresh Panzer Grey, during the early part off 1943 (Winter) it has been documented with a heavy White Wash.

What colour is the Tiger in the picture bellow?

The picture is copied from Alan Hamby’s great site http://www.alanhamby.com/gallery5.shtml

I know, I have had this particular Tiger up for discussion before but anyway…I guess I was not convinced the previoues time arround :slight_smile:

Svenne

Hilary Doyle and Tom Jentz, as usual, have done some of the best research on this topic, though I don’t see it published yet. They visited the colour standards bodies in Germany and sought information on what had been in use during wartime.

Afterwards, Hilary showed me a colour card he’d brought back from the institute. It was supposed to represent fresh, official 1940s Panzer Grey.

“But it’s black” I said.

“Ahh, wait a minute. Let me get something that IS black” he said. And he put them together.

“Oh”. I said. “It’s kind of a little blue. When compared to black”.

David