When doing an aircraft in a NMF finish, (P-47D), should the national insignia be in a flat or gloss finish?
Best I can tell from my refs, they don’t seem super glossy, but there is a sheen to them, definitely not flat.
eggshell? [:P]
Depends on how long the aircraft has been operational, and how much TLC it’s received from its Crew Chief… So it’s your call…
As you can see with these post-war Missouri NG Jugs, the one in the foreground has less sheen to it than the one immediately behind it…
The national insignia weathered just like any other painted surface…
Thanks for the replies! I guess what I was asking is when they are initially applied, are they done in a glossy paint or a flat paint.
For that manner, altough we as modelers usually do camo finishes in flat (or apply a flat finish), I’ve noticed at museums and airshows that the camo finishes usually seem to have a glossy finish. So perhaps they are just painted on with regular paint, and then go flat as they naturally weather?
Airshow and musuem warbirds are usually kept in a much better state of finish that actual service aircraft. Do not use them as a guide for depicting a combat aircraft. Most WWII US insignia were by regulation to be applied in flat finish paints. Insignia Blue, Insignia Red, Insignia White.
Check out these vintage shots of P-38s from Life magazine. I realize that they are not NMF aircraft, but it gives you an idea of how camo aircraft looked and lived.
Be careful with museum and airshow birds, as they’re restoration jobs.
If we’re talking World War II, it varies by plane, paint, theater of operations, frequency of sorties, quality of the maintenance facilities, etc.
A USAAF fighter group operating out of England would typically have much cleaner aircraft than a USMC squadron flying Wildcats or Corsairs off some island in the south pacific. Likewise, carrier-based aircraft would be much more stringently maintained than island-based due to the threat of salt air corrosion.
Same with, say, the 352nd FG. They had access to pretty great facilities at Bodney, but when they moved forward to Asche in late 1944 while “on loan” to the 9th AAF, things were a lot more primitive.
Planes were also waxed when possible, since the improved aerodynamics could yield about 10 more miles per hour, so it’s entirely possible to have a pretty heavily faded aircraft that’s still shiny.
The only way to really be sure is to track down as many pictures as you can of the actual plane you’re building.
Stik,
Where did you find that photo of the P-61 with the Schwimmwagen in the front? That’s a dio just begging to be done…
Here is a great shot of a “camo’d” NMF Mustang. It probably had some waxing done[:P][;)] judging by the sheen on the OD.
Smitty, that P-38 with Kubelwagen shot came up from Life magazine when I did a search for P-38s in their archive. I have their site bookmarked. Their color photos from that time are incredible and being put online for all to see.
A few different sheens…
If this one was painted gloss, it didn’t last long!
And a wartime Petie 3rd compared with the modern warbird…
Markings were applied with a semi gloss paint. More modern aircraft actually have decals which are a perforated material made by 3M which the markings are printed on. I have two such hanging in the stair way into my man space.
!(http://i163.photobucket.com/albums/t320/hawkeyes_bucket/The Hawk/thelairstairs.jpg)
Stick…some nice pictures there. Where did they come from?
Regarding “The Iowa Beaut” there… That different shade and sheen of the OD is due to the fact it had it’s invasion stripes and upper fuselage & stabs painted over with locally-aquired British paint… Pretty common occurance in 1943/44 for repaints…
In the Warbirds community, they’re painted in glossy finishes because even though they’re painted in camouflage colors to take on an “authentic look”, they want to be as visible as possible to other pilots in order to avoid collisions… . Wartime paint ,on the other hand, is flat because gloss paint is almost as good as a mirror, and you didn’t want sunlight reflecting off it, which could allow an enemy pilot to spot you from 50 miles away…
Now near as I can tell from my refs, the aircraft that were finished in flat (or “Non-Specular” in Navy-speak) were given national insignia in flat paints as well… The “Stars & Bars” were painted on with stencils back then, not decaled… HOWVER… Nothing is carved in stone during Wartime, so if some factories were outta say, flat blue and flat white paint that day, they went out the door with semi-gloss insignia, and vice-versa… DuPont was the supplie for about everyone, and they were cranking out paint for the military 24/7, but even then couldn’t always keep up with the demand, and some of their paints had real issue as well…
Like the initial batches of OD for the Army Air Force… They had some real "Color-shifting problems, in which the OD would turn almost purple after exposure to desert sunlight, and the QC departments also had bad days, like the initial batches of gloss black paint supplied to Northrop for the P-61…
This’s probably the most famous Life magazine photo of a WW2 painter: Mrs. Irma Lee McElroy of Corpus Christi, TX at work, touching up the wing insignia of a US Navy trainer after teh stencil was removed…
!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Screenshots/Models/P-47/P-47 Details/IrmaMcElroy.jpg?t=1297374654)
Again everybody, thanks for the suggestions and photos - they are great! I love seeing the old color pics from WWII era, seeing the hairstyles, clothes, etc. is fascinating to me!
I remember reading in one of the books about crews using shoe polish on aircraft and another man saying that his family sent car wax over for him.
That leads me to two conclusions:
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They tried to wax their aircraft to get some extra speed.
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Materials to wax their aircraft were in short supply. and probably not high on the materials command’s list of needed war supplies.
I was watching an episode of Baa Baa Black Sheep with Dad many years ago, and one of the VMF 214 pilots was doing that boot-polish thing to his aircraft… I asked Dad about it being true and he said it was a lotta bullsh*t… Their aircraft had so much stuff hangin’ on and out it, and they were dinged and dented in so many places, that any perceived decrease in drag was nullified ten times over… When they had rockets and tanks on, he had to add power to go down, lol…
He went on to say that some crew-chiefs did it, but it was only to make 'em prettier… After they got rid of the camo paint is when there was a measurable speed difference of few knots, but it was only on the aircraft with new engines and when they weren’t using Brit Avgas, and still wasn’t enough to really matter…
Looking in the Navy Technical manual for the TBM it specifies gloss paint for all insignia and markings. Don’t know if that helps you or not but does provide a data point.