New German Destroyer...price gouging?

I shall attempt to address the salient points raised thus far -

“So, you say you ignored Rob’s offer of a kit, and then you try and suggest surprise that your review kit never came. What address is he supposed to ship this to if you don’t respond and give him one?”

I did not ignore Rob’s PM - I replied and heard nothing more. What I said was that I ignored his request for silence.

“Rob offered you a kit not because he was trying to buy your silence…”

Although the evidence is not conclusive, I think a jury might convict….

“My Trumpeter Hood sits with it’s hull mostly but not quite sanded because I got tired of essentially a FIVE FOOT SEAM that fit like crap.”

Then you should have taken it back for exchange - mine is fine*.*

“Woes of the fit between Trumpeter upper and lower hull pieces are legion.”

Care to highlight some reviews which say as much? I have only found one from the subject range in which I am interested.

“Let’s also not forget that Dave is projecting a lot of his anger towards distributors on to Dragon:”

My ‘anger’ as you put it, is principally directed at those distort the final rrp wherever the kit is sold. They know who they are.

“Distributor mark-ups are a fact of life unless you go to the source and pay the higher shipping yourself. Why, just last week I spent $50 on shipping for a kit from Hong Kong because it saved me $120 off of the retail price!”

What you fail to mention is that any initial price advantage can be compromised by import duty at the destination end.

Also, his seems at odds with the statement you made about expecting people to live on poor wages and to work for next to nothing…

“People should not be able to get a good wage, but should be happy with fast-food worker wages because it keeps the product cheaper for him. People should not be allowed to charge for services above the bar; they should do top-notch work and sell at cut-rate prices that make their company untenable.”

Tracy, that is exactly what the free market is all about. What distorts this is the Govts and the Distributors/Importers.

And I wouldn’t say that Trumpeter’s current company position is “untenable” - would you?

“…you are not likely to see a retrenchment in fidelity of detail. If it’s more than you can handle, I’m sorry.”

Then I suspect that we will see more comments like these across the web.

In reference to the Scharnhorst kit -

“I think Dragon have gone over the top by making the smaller parts more complicated than need be, and of course, the weird layout of the instructions complicate matters even more.”

“All the 20mm/37mm/105mm AA guns have been added, I didn’t use all the parts included in the kit for these, as some of them were so tiny I just can`t see them! I didn’t like the way Dragon have done the 105 mm guns, I think they should have been moulded in pairs rather than singles, it was a devil of a job to line up the barrels in parallel.”

“Spent a whole day going cross-eyed building the light AA armament and adding PE details to the mains and secondaries. Still more PE to add. Each AA weapon comes in at least 4 parts with another 4 or 5 of PE,”

“I will admit I’m now finding it more of a chore than fun. A lot of the kits plastic parts are incredibly small too, and I’m sure could have easily been moulded on to their relevant positions. Hell, the sprue gates are bigger than some of the parts.”

I just wonder if Dragon are being well advised, because if they continue with this level of often-needless complexity, then those of us who are ‘behind the curve’ as you put it elsewhere, and are I suspect a significant majority of model kit buyers, will not be parting with money for something which you say we are incapable of building, and there’s no profit in that avenue for anybody.

As has been said elsewhere - “I wonder how many of these kits will actually be completed, rather than end up as $200 doorstops”?

Not everyone wants a Ferrari, and contrary to your opinion I have no problem with those who do.

What I would like to see, is a kit whose build provides for a relaxing and enjoyable experience rather than a very expensive and frustrating one.

You guys should learn to relax.

Quote from Warshipbuilder regarding the offer of a free sample:

“I subsequently ignored him and continued to pour scorn on the asking price of the kit across a number of modelling forums. I have even advocated a global boycott on the kit until the price was dropped, but to no avail.”

Now you’re claiming that you did indeed reply (!?). Regardless, by trying to prompt a boycott, it’s obvious that you really do have a major gripe against Dragon. But if you think they’re over-engineered, overly complex and overly-expensive…then why does it bother you so much? I don’t understand your crusade, as Tracy said, just don’t buy their kits.

Latest Dragon kits are also expensive in Australia (Scharnhorst LHS = $220 Au) but you’re not just paying for styrene in a cardboard box - you’re paying for R&D and state of the art tooling. Like it or not, they are a high-end kit manufacturer, it’s like trying to boycott Jaguar to make their cars as cheap as a Ford.

Alternatively, Tracy should stop waving the Dragon flag like some rabid fanatic. I recall a post where you poured scorn on their Zerstorer before it was even released, and (in Oz at least) it’s going to be about 1/2 the price of the Dragon. Trumpeter make some truly excellent kits, and frankly, crying about your Hood’s hull mis-alignment makes me believe you’ve forgotten what this hobby is all about.

You’ve both lost objectivity.

Now that I’ve completely alienated myself (and on my very first post!)…hi, my names Richard, pleased to meet you all!

This is the free market, and it’s called supply and demand. If the demand is there, the price goes up. Pretty normal, and is one of the factors that makes the US great. Why can’t China do the same?

Price gouging is when the prices goes up due to some calamity that makes your product in high demand, like food or gas during a storm. Very different things, really.

Don’t like the price of the kit, then don’t buy it. It’s not like its actually necessary to your existence.

I agree, and it will be interesting to see what happens to the prices as Trump continues to close the gap between themselves and Dragon, which is what appears to be happening w/ the German Destroyer release…Trump seems to be removing some of the things that set them back from Dragon in the past, ala the PE fret, etc…

Gentlemen,

Next we’ll hear advocates for returning to Revell’s very old practise of molding on 20mm and 40mm AA guns. I, for one, truly enjoyed building Dragon’s Scharnhorst and am looking forward to building either Trumpeter’s or Dragon’s German destroyer.

Let’s take a vote . . . does anyone want to return to the good old days of selecting from only Bismarck, Tirpitz, Yamato, Musashi, Missouri, and the other Iowa’s? Or, better yet, return to mixed scales where the only thing in common was the box size? My vote is a resounding “NO WAY!”

Dragon, Trumpeter, Academy, Revell, et. al., please keep up the terrific work! If I don’t want a particular kit, I have the choice of not buying it; however, at least I have a choice between a huge number of kits not available when I was a kid.

Bill Morrison

Post pics…

Lol, hi Richard and welcome to FSM!!!

There are a few things that don’t make sense to me about some of the posts above. One is Dragon not being able to control their prices. I don’t believe this for one second. There are alot of companies out there that meticulously control the prices of their products out on the retailers shelves. And another is, if the CAD people and the designers/researchers at Dragon are not getting paid (unless copies of the kits in question count), then that means that Dragon has an even lower cost in the design of their kits. Maybe I’m not understanding, or seeing the whole picture on Dragons design side of things.

I will continue to buy kits from both manufacturers when I feel the need to arises as I do like both companies. Until I feel that I can justify the 50 bucks for the Dragon kit, I simply won’t buy it. If an individual as a modeler feels they just have to have it, then so be it. Their choice as a consumer in a market where there are several options. If I decided that I must have a 350th Scharnhorst, well, guess Dragon will get my money ( which I’m actually considering cause I love this ship). Just not crazy about folks always defending Dragon on thier expensive uber kits. Damn, I’m starting to sound like Hans now…

[dto:], would love to see some pics of this beauty!!!

“But if you think they’re over-engineered, overly complex and overly-expensive…then why does it bother you so much? I don’t understand your crusade, as Tracy said, just don’t buy their kits.”

Let me explain -

The general rule up to now has been that as soon as one kit manufacturer brings out a certain subject, you can be pretty sure that none of the others will also bring out that same subject because the perception - rightly or wrongly - is that there’s no money in it for them.That is why much secrecy surrounds new releases etc.

What this may mean is that when a much hoped-for subject is released by a manufacturer you don’t particularly care for, for whatever reason, then you can kiss goodbye to that subject ever being released by a different manufacturer.

What this means for me is that I will not be able to get a 1/350 Scharnhorst kit which I can actually enjoy building.

Life ain’t fair, I accept that, I also accept that I will not buy any Dragon kits for the reasons I have already described, but I do hope that my other much-hoped for subject releases are done by Trumpeter rather than Dragon.

It would be great if Trumpeter followed the example of the Zerstorers and released their own version of the Scharnhorst but I rather suspect that this will not happen in my lifetime for the reasons I have described.

“Latest Dragon kits are also expensive in Australia (Scharnhorst LHS = $220 Au) but you’re not just paying for styrene in a cardboard box - you’re paying for R&D and state of the art tooling. Like it or not, they are a high-end kit manufacturer, it’s like trying to boycott Jaguar to make their cars as cheap as a Ford.”

The thing is, how many of these Dragon super-ships do you ever see completed and on the tables at model shows and competitions? And why does it cost more than a Revell 1/350 Bismarck (made in relatively high-wage Poland, and paid for in Euros) plus a set of WEM etch?

Someone recently described what he called the 'Hasegawa Syndrome; to explain why Hasegawa seem to survive and thrive, despite hardly ever releasing any new-tool stuff. They sell to collectors, not builders, and every time they re-release a kit with new decals, there are a certain number of these collectors who absolutely must have the kit to keep their collection complete. And the price charged reflects the lack of pricelelasticity of demand in this market.

The Dragon 1/350 Scharnhorst is undoubtedly a good kit. But not £120-worth, especially as the etched set included only includes part of what you need. There are still plenty of ships to build without paying these prices.

Again, I respectfully disagree. Aoshima released a 1/350 Kongo (1944 version); Fujimi followed with Kongo (1944). Tamiya released HMS Prince of Wales in 1/350; Academy did the same. Tamiya, Academy, and Revell each released Bismarck and Tirpitz in both 1/350 and 1/700 (as did Trumpeter, Matchbox, etc. in 1/700). How many USS Arizona’s are out there? Look at Hasegawa’s Yukikaze; Tamiya released the same version of the same ship!

I would actually love to see Trumpeter respond to Dragon by releasing a 1/350 straight-stem or early war Scharnhorst. It could happen.

I would also love to post pictures! However, there are compatibility issues between my camera and my computer that nobody has been able to figure out. I therefore have a choice . . . more ship models or a new computer. They don’t pay military retirees and teachers enough for both! [whstl]

Bill Morrison

I respect your point Warshipbuilder, but not sure I agree. I think there’s always going to be a market for mid + high-end, provided the subject isn’t too obscure. I’d lay odds that Academy’s Graf Spee outsells Trumpeter’s at least 3 to 1. Similar to the Z-ships, one is 1/2 the price but still plenty good enough for most modelers, while the hard-cores are happy to pay a premium for a slightly better kit.

I’ve already got a Trumpy on the way, which is what brought me to this thread in the first place. I wanted to see how much PE I need to get - I’m not overly fussy, ladders, stairs and rails are enough for me.

Personally, I wish one of them made a 1/350 RN destroyer instead, then I’d be buying both! From the looks of it the Trumpy will be more than adequate for me.

I too will look forward to a RN destroyer release. Tribal or V&W or whatever. MIght actually get to build what keeps sinking me when I play SIlent Hunter III!!!

uh huh…

bill, what compatibility issues are you having between the camera & computer?

The computer does not recognize the driver, no matter how many times I load it, remove it, load it again, etc. I have tried the disk that came with the camera; similarly, I have tried downloading the driver from the website. I have also taken it to my school’s tech rep, who cannot get it to work, either.

Bill

What format is the camera memory? SD? Have you tried a card reader?

Why would I take it back for exchange? The hobby is about building; filling and sanding is part of that. You and another poster appear to have misunderstood my point; I was tired of working through a particular problem. I’m not suggesting that I shouldn’t have to, or that their kit was garbage, I was comparing one aspect of the two kits. Dragon’s better fit meant I was able to get through that part of my Scharnhorst build without burning out on it. I have issues with burnout, but that’s not Trumpeter’s fault. It just means that the kit has less value to me due to the increased work I need to do.

Then you need to expand your research. I suppose that if it’s not in your interest it doesn’t exist? Here’s some posts for you:

Trumpeter 1/350th CV-2 Lexington:
http://www.shipmodels.info/mws_forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64156
http://battlefleetmodels.yuku.com/topic/498

Trumpeter 1/350th BB-55 North Carolina
http://www.armorama.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=1858

Trumpeter 1/350th BB-59 Massachusetts
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/ships/tmcmass.htm

Trumpeter 1/350th CA-38 San Francisco:
http://modelingmadness.com/reviews/misc/ships/tmcsf.htm

Please note those are from all over the web and not just ModelWarships, so I am not pulling “slanted, biased” reviews.

[quote user=“warshipbuilder”]
What you fail to mention is that any initial price advantage can be compromised by import duty at the destination end.

[/quote]

“Can be,” if you happen to live in a country that has them. I fail to see how this is any manufacturer’s fault.

No, but I wouldn’t base my argument on one ship model either.

I agree. They were written by people who don’t want the detail.

[quote user=“warshipbuilder”]
As has been said elsewhere - “I wonder how many of these kits will actually be completed, rather than end up as $200 doorstops”?

[/quote]

You can say that with every kit, but it would probably be better if you didn’t distort the price… We’ve already seen completed kits in multiple places:
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery/bb/dkm/scharnhorst-350-pvb/pvb-index.html
http://www.finescale.com/Products and Reviews/Kit Reviews/2010/12/Dragon DKM Scharnhorst 1943.aspx (also the same build here)
http://web.ipmsusa3.org/content/german-battleship-scharnhorst-1943-smart-kit
That’s what a minute long google search revealed.

Plenty of them out there.

[quote user=“Konigwolf13”]
My goodness I’m about to blaspheme Tracy, While not a ship kit I’m about to enhance a Dragon kit with parts from an Academy

[/quote]

I ain’t God so slander away. Just remember that it’s easier to stay uncontroversial the less you post. I never did this because I was after anyone’s approval, so you haven’t done much more than mystify me.

Tracy,

I have not tied a card reader but will do so. Thanks for the suggestion!

Bill

Re. camera/computer compatibillity. I have an older Nikon Coolpix that my computer (Windows XP) will not recognize even after loading the disc that came with the camera. I picked up a card reader and now pull the memory card from the camera and run it through the reader to load pictures to the computer. It’s an extra step but it works. Picked up the card reader from Radio Shack for about $20.00.

Pat.

Be interesting to be a fly on the wall during the meetings that lead to the “go” on a model project. Why do companies approach the market the way they do? No small matter because in our day, the differences between brands is getting quite substantial. What would be really interesting to know is to what degree makers pay attention to the boards and reviews. In the book world good reviews help sales (word of mouth is probably better for some genres) and I don’t doubt it is here too. Now, I never buy a kit without checking the reviews and the boards. Must admit that many kits in my stash were bought in the enthusiasm of reentering the hobby and were chosen for the wrong reasons. I wish I was reading reviews from day one. But I wish I was reading all of them and checking the boards too. Let me make some points.

  1. The gold standard among reviewers (this includes Osprey books and often the reviews in FSM) is detail. Within limits this makes sense. None of us here models space ships or doll houses. (Both hobbies of great sophistication BTW - not to mention railroads.) So if one is going to model a tank, ship or plane it is connected with something real and should represent it. This is especially true if “history tripping” is part of the hobby. The question is “how much” and “what type.” No answers to either of these questions. If recreating a real object to in the greatest possible detail is the goal then the road there requires a very high part count. This is Dragon’s road and it has many fans. I don’t think that a contemporary Dragon kit can be considered expensive if you figure in “modeling per hour.” If you’re going to score Scharnhorst or Independence (both with over 1200 parts) you won’t finish it in a weekend. This gets a little murky with PE. Dragon is claiming that one of their new uber multi-media kits decreases or removes the incentive to get aftermarket stuff. No small thing there. I have Mikasa from Hasegawa with a very reasonable part count of under 500. If you want the Lion Roar detail set you get 300 PE pieces - plus the metal barrels and it costs more than the kit. Add them together and you have a Mikasa with more detail than a Dragon. And a kit that costs a ton of money. And a kit with 300 PE pieces - which might send some sane people running for cover. However, there’s a down side here. If you start with a simpler kit that goes together nicely you have the option of paying the extra money and going the extra mile if you want. Dragon sticks you with the mile. BTW: if there is one thing I wish would appear in every review and on every box it’s part count. I know that some kits have a lot of parts that are unneeded, but it still tells you a lot about the kit.

  2. Detail will get you detail. Does it get you a better kit? Not sure you can generalize. I’ve only done Dragon armor, although I have their 350 Laffey and it looks good, with it’s 400 parts, although not better than my Hasegawa Yukikase with 170. So when I think of Dragon I think of “Magic Tracks.” Are they good? I don’t think they’re worth the effort, and will be worth the effort only if they’re done correctly. Here’s one of the down sides of high part count. Every part can lead to a screw-up. Fit on Dragon kits in my experience is usually very good - but not good enough to avoid some dicey moments. (Here is why Dragon’s sub-standard instructions are a serious negative. I personally would be glad to pay $5 more for a Dragon kit with Tamiya instructions - it would be invaluable when trying to weave through all of the various options available. Also help if you knew where the parts were supposed to go and how a major sub section should look after completion. Complex kits and bad instructions are a horrible mix.) What has struck me about Dragon is that despite the startling detail found in the parts, is that you can run into serious problems with “mission critical” fits. (You get exactly the same thing with Eduard aircraft. They look terrific on the sprue. They have unusual detail. And somewhere, sometime, you will flirt with an ulcer or heart attack because something really important doesn’t fit.) This is why I’d take a newer Tamiya tank over a Dragon any day. It’s also why I’d take a newer Tamiya aircraft over an Eduard, Dragon or Zvezda. When crunch times come, major Tamiya fits work and usually work astonishingly well. Maybe this will not be the case in the future, and maybe it’s not the case for every kit now. But if you’re looking for a clean build, you’re probably not going to go with a Dragon. Not sure you get it with a Trumpie or Academy either. But at least you’ve got fewer chances to go wrong.

  3. The definition of “good” changes with modeling skills. The folks that want a 1200 part model, by and large, probably know what they’re doing. So if they run into a problem, they probably have the skills to cope: they might even enjoy the challenge. This road has some unexpected turns in the world of ship building. Some of the very best ship modelers might well get their jollies out of buying a 50 year old mold and essentially rebuilding the thing from ground up. Ironically, I’m not sure that the real fanatics are big buyers of after market stuff, unless you define resin as after market. A lot of them think nothing is more fun than building a mast out of brass. Or scratch building the superstructure out of Evergreen. And putting in textured Evergreen for a new deck - naturally. Or scratch build a 96 scale Iron Duke and put RC into it (check Ship Modelers Scratch build for an example). So some of the best modelers on earth maybe do three models a year. They’re also the kind of models I wouldn’t attempt unless someone put a gun to my head. On the other end of the scale, a clean build, even if it has lower part count, still leaves the modeler with a very good canvas for painting, weathering or building dios. All of this should be to the good. In the real world it can cause trouble if buyers are reading reviews and reviewers are judging a kit largely on the “gold standard.” A really good example is the Zvezda BF-109F that recently came out. FSM gave the kit a glowing review: many of the boards went along. Many fine modelers think it’s the best 109 kit ever made. (That says a lot if you do airplanes.) But if you look at the boards closely (I say this as a Zvezda fan) you’ll see that the kit is terrific if you’re a very good modeler. If you’re not, hold onto the hat.

  4. Pushing yourself is good - sometimes. I do get irritated when people on the boards implicitly look down on “shake and bake” kits because the maker assumes buyers want something that assembles properly. But I suppose it’s true that you’ll never get better if you don’t get outside the comfort zone. (The reluctance to do so, methinks, explains why ship modelers exist in smaller numbers than aviation and armor builders. I’m not saying that building a ship is harder, but it is more time consuming than other genres things being remotely equal.) I did that in my last kit when I was employing PE in large scale for the first time, doing major structural surgery and rigging with stretched sprue. It was fun and I’m a better modeler for the experience. But it also told me that I suffer from project fatigue. It took me a month to rebuild the old Iron Duke and I was tired of it at the end. (Same thing happened with my last Dragon tank.) I won’t be a candidate for Dragon’s Scharnhorst or Independence. Valuable thing to know. And when I do Mikasa, I think I’ll stick to maybe metal guns and generic PE - we’ll skip the 9 sprues from Lion Roar. And I’m glad my Trumpie 350 San Francisco is sitting there with under 300 parts - looks very good too.

  5. Nobody is going to die of boredom, but I companies do a little better at picking good ships with interesting or important records. For a ship to get modeled it really helps that it suffered from a calamity or was simply really really big. (Hood, Bismarck, Arizona, Missouri, Yamato, or, heaven help us, Mutsu.) A lot gets lost in the wash. Maybe WWI is ancient history, but no British Dreadnaughts in 350 scale? The USN has not been well served either. The lack of CV6 is near scandal. But where’s the first Helena? Of all the DDs out there had fine records, but the only star Fletcher. (Of course RN DDs aren’t there at all in 350.) Where are the guys that did the heavy lifting like Sterret, O’Brien, Maury or Charles Ausburne (or even Saterlee)? Maybe if we’ve got an Independence we’ll get a Princeton. Still I’m glad Dragon’s building 1300 part ships. Just hope Academy or others remembers those of us that would like to take off a digit from the total.