Need some research help

Modeling Subjects Aircraft
1

Okay, I know this should probably be on the reference board, but I figured I’d get better answers here. From what my grandma has told me, I know that my grandpa was an aerial reconnaisance photographer/developer. When he went on missions, there were other men in the aircraft with him, and definitely a tail gunner. So, I was wondering if anyone could help me out with figuring out which type of plane he flew. From the pictures I have, it seems like he flew at high altitude during the day. Oh, and it was the ETO. Any help is greatly appreciated.

By the way, could you also please let me know of any conversion kits, etc. to make the plane into a photo configuration? Thanks a lot for any help.

2

Hmmm… based on your mention of a tailgunner, I’d hazard a guess that the aircraft may have been an F-7, the recon variant of the B-24 Liberator.

Can you give any more info? Your Grandfather’s name would be a good place to start. Do you or anyone else in your family have any documents, photos or other items of his? They could be helpful…

Fade to Black…

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3

He could have been on a B-17, B-24, or a B-25. He flew at high altitudes (above 10,000’) and he was in the European Theater of Operations. As Blackwolf said:

Can you give any more info? Your Grandfather’s name would be a good place to start. Do you or anyone else in your family have any documents, photos or other items of his? They could be helpful…

Any info would be heplful.

4

…or an F-10 photo version of the B-25, whose turrets were removed, but the tail gun remained in some cases. Wolf’s right, more information would be needed to make anything other than a guess.

5

My dad was a waist gunner with the 25th bomb group recon special they flew a mixed bag of aircraft including Mosquitos and RB-17s. They were based in Watton England.

6

I’ll try to post more later, as it’s kind of late now, but here goes:

Based in England
Operated mainly over France and Germany
Lot’s of pictures of b-17’s and P-38’s
Name: Joe Saunders

As I said, I’ll post more in the morning, err, later in the morning. But thank you so much for the help. It is greatly appreciated.

7

I’m thinking that this could be the unit. To my knowledge, the 25th BG (R) was the only unit based in England which operated heavies in a recce role. I could be mistaken though.

The sources I’ve come across conflict as to operational tenures of aircraft types but it seems that the unit operated F-7As (B-24J, L, M) from July or August til November 1944 and F-9Cs (B-17G) from November 1944 onward. Some reference is made in one source to the unit operating earlier variants of the F-9, probably F-9s, F-9As or F-9Bs, all of which were conversions of B-17Fs, but this may have been while the 25th BG (R) was still designated as 802nd RG (P). Do you know the time period during which your Grandfather was in England?

The 25th also operated a small number of B-26Gs, the only other aircraft used by the unit which would have a tail gunner. These were used mostly on special night recce missions, however.

The F-10 (B-25) is highly improbable as, to my knowledge, there was only one B-25 used by the 8th and 9th Air Forces.

I’d say you’re looking at an F-7 (B-24) or a F-9 (B-17). Is there any possibility that we may see some of the photos you spoke of? They would not only be helpful in the researching of your Grandfather’s unit/aircraft but they would be of immense interest to many here on the forums.

Fade to Black…

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I will try to post some pictures here later this afternoon. I have to scan them first.

Here goes, based on the brief notes/marks on the backs of many of the pictures, I think that the based they were stationed at was either called “orly” or “bovingdon”. For example, in one scrapbook, under the section labeled “visitors who passed thru bovingdon”, there are pictures of Clark Gable, the U.S. ambasssdor to Britain, Secretary of Treasury Henry Morgenthau Jr, Secretary of Navy James Forrestal, the Polish Premier, the Canadian PM, and on and on. I’ve even found pictures of FDR and one of Patton. To the best of my knowledge, all of these pictures were taken by my grandpa, or at least his close friends.

If it helps, I found a picture of his group in dress uniform. My grandpa is wearing the stripes of a corporal, alond with several bars on the sleeve, which I believe are overseas chevrons. I found an off-grounds pass that indicates he is allowed to wear a good conduct medal. Can anyone describe it for me? I cannot identify the other medal he is wearing, so perhaps you guys can help me with that when I get the pictures posted.

As for the planes, I found a picture of P-38’s (in invasion stripes) in formation above farms. The title at the bottom says “7TH PHOTO GR”. Only a dozen or so of the hundreds are labeled this way, so I am not sure if that is where he actually was stationed.

Many of the pictures feature B-17’s with an “L” in a white (?) box, usually with another letter under the serial number. One such picture features a B-17G named “Lucky Lady”, serial number 239941. Under the serial number on the tail is the letter G.

I hope that this helps, as I’m looking forward to solving this mystery. I will try to post those pictures later tonight. Your help, as always, is greatly appreciated.

9

Almost forgot, the time period definitely extends to 1944, probably 45. As for the start, I’m not sure, but probably 42-43. I have yet to pin that one down.

If anyone has any special requests for pictures, I can try and see what I can find. HE worked out at the naval ordnance test station in China Lake, California after the war, so there are pictures of some experimental/weird aircraft as well. Well, I better go do my work, so I’ll post those pictures hopefully by 6 or 7 tonight.

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Here are the pictures:

http://www.pbase.com/jcamara/world_war_2_photos

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Bovingdon was a USAF base from 1943 for 92nd BG with B17s initially. It later featured in the film Hanover Street - a B25 was one of the “Stars”.

12

Thanks. I’ll try to post some more pictures later, and hopefully of better quality.

13

uh… bump

14

Man this is awesome. The one pic of the B-17 with it crew was probably taken with an aerial panoramic camera to get the perspective like they did. Has Pix and Steve seen these yet??

15

Okay, I’ve had time to do some more research now, and have uncovered a few things.

Was in ETO from Dec. '43 to Dec. '45
Photography Specialist, 8th Air force, Army Air Corps
Honorably discharged as a Sergeant
Serial# 33 197 717
Based in Bovingdon, England

The only thing I’m not sure of yet are what part of the eighth he was in. Does anyone know how specialists were attached to units (if they even were)?

I’ll try to post a few more pictures in the next couple of days too.

If you see a picture you like, or have a request, just email me and I can send you a high-quality scan. The originals are roughly 8x10 glossy, black and white of course. Drop me a line and I’ll see what I can do for you. Questions? Advice? Just email me. I’ll be happy to help after all the help I’ve recieved from these boards.

16

Those are some fantastic old photos -
I wish I could help you with your search - but there are others here with the expertise I lack. Thanks for sharing the pics and I’ll keep an eye on this thread to see if anyone comes up with the answer you’re looking for.
Good luck, mate.

17

Thanks for the help and understanding. I’ll try to post more in a few hours.

18

Excellent photos…thanks for sharing!

Regards, Dan

19

Lost track of this thread for a bit…

Neo, I’d be very interested in seeing larger scans of any of the photos you have. There may be some clues in some of them that you may not recognize. I’ll shoot you an email tonight…

Fade to Black…

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Those are some fine photos and you are indeed lucky. I looked up the patches in my great June, 1943, National Geographic, which has almost 1,000 color reproductions of every US military army, wing, squadron, group, etc., insignia in every branch of the service, as well as all uniform devices, up to the middle of 1943. I was curious about the shoulder patch on the right. The left one, I guess, is generic sleeve hash marks, the middle, of course, is the general period Air Forces patch, and the one on the right is, as you obviously know, the shoulder patch of a Photography Specialist, Air Forces. It bears the silhouette of an old accordian box camera. I thought it was the state of Delaware or something.
TOM