John,
Well said!
I’ve been reading this thread and at the age of 56 have learned an awful lot from all who have responded and put in their two cents.
It’s truly great to see so much intelligent input about censorship on a modeling forum.
I know, that if I put so much effort into building a scale model with so much detail and authenticity only to have a show sponser enforce this kind of censorship, I would take my work and go home. If they don’t want to accept it for what it is then it’s their loss.
I also believe that we have every right to express an opinion on that as well. And then move on.
granddadjohn, after all the words written here, has said it best of all.
Thank you John
jim
if i may ,i will give my 2 cents on it from my personal Dutch point of view.
is it so easy to forget millions of lifes are distroyed cause of this symbol?.
it isn’t mentioned once in this topic.
not only European but American lifes as well.
the Europeans grew up with a intense hate towards Germans me included.
i have leaved that hate behind me and i can communicate with Germans on a normal base,but still millions in Europe can’t forget or forgive.
they have all right in the world to feel offensed by seeing this symbol on toys!
i geuss lots of Americans and immigrants are offensed as well.
what difference does it make when you’re not putting the most hated European symbol on top of your work?
is your work worse without it ?i doubt it.
for accuracy? don’t see the point,not one of my models is even close to 75 % accuracy neither are most die-cast or assembly kits.
for those of you that don’t know me i collect and scratchbuilt American fireapparatus.
when you have knowledge of German war machinery you’d recognize it as German without Nazi symbols easily.
i live on Hells Highway and many civilians and alleid forces found there eternal rest here.
i feel offended by the act little Harry did.
if i had the chance i kicked his royal @ss!!! more then once.
the swastika belongs in historiebooks and in a museum .period!
although the Swastika is banned in Europe you still can buy it in Spain and Italy.
as holiday souvenirs for crying out loud!
even in my own country there is a diecast model made by Rio for sale in the toy shops.
now for those who wanna be political correct,a little firehouse story.
BY MELISSA GRACE, OREN YANIV
and ALISON GENDAR
DAILY NEWS STAFF WRITERS
Shamed by a year of drunken arrests and sexcapades, FDNY brass are pushing to ban some of the city’s more colorful - and outrageous - firehouse nicknames.
The “Happy Hookers” of Engine 227 in Red Hook, Brooklyn, and the notorious “Animal House” moniker of Engine 75/Ladder 33 in the Bronx are among 31 firehouse mottos that could be scrapped, sources said yesterday.
Fire Department spokesman David Billig confirmed that FDNY honchos were reviewing all department patches to make sure the nicknames meet department regulations for content and size.
But firefighters said the decision already had been handed down - slogans on 31 of the city’s 358 firehouses would have to go.
Engine 151/Ladder 76 in Tottenville, S.I., where a drunken brawl nearly killed a firefighter on New Year’s Eve 2003, already has ditched its “Southern Comfort” nickname for the more dignified “South Shore Pride.”
The “Animal House” logo in the Bronx has been scrutinized ever since two firefighters were accused in August of having sex with a groupie inside the firehouse.
Bronx firefighters said the nickname dates back decades, to when horse-drawn rigs answered fire calls. But neighbors said its origin no longer matters.
“It demeans the firefighters and it demeans the people who they serve,” said Bronx resident Ronette Jones, 34.
For firehouses untouched by scandal, the fuss seemed foolish.
“We’re losing the name we had for years,” said a firefighter at the Queens Hollis station, known as the “Hollis Hogs.”
The squad had used the slogan for about 20 years and hadn’t thought of a new nickname yet. Emblems were still up in the firehouse, and on its rigs and uniforms.
Bill Aduleit, who works near the Red Hook firehouse that will likely lose its “Happy Hookers” slogan, said he understands the changes.
“But I look at it this way - all I care about is when I call 911 they show up,” he said.
TOO HOT TO HANDLE?
Here are some of the fire company nicknames deemed potentially offensive by FDNY brass:
Hollis Hogs, Engine 301/Ladder 150 in Hollis, Queens
Happy Hookers, Engine 227 in Red Hook, Brooklyn
Harlem Zoo, Engine 59/Ladder 30 in Harlem
Animal House, Engine 75/Ladder 33 in the Bronx
Originally published on January 14, 2005
nicknames used for decades are offensive now after something simple as sex with a FDNY groupie???.
the nazi symbol represents millions of lost lifes.
talking about politically correct.
i’m not offended by seeing nazi symbols on kits,but i do feel when i see people dress like them.
My take on all this is that it’s history, enough said. Are we now to ban the Japanese flag in the USA because it offends a few people. To ban the nazi emblem is to deny history… Only the ignorant and uneducated place bans on everything and they “hope it will go away”… It was that style of paranoia and intolerance that led to the NAZI uprising in the first place… Teach your children well… they will learn to hate it, not to ignore it like so many in Europe still do.
I can’t believe that Germany which has a resurgance in a youth movement towards Nazi ideals is still dealing with symbals… They should be dealing with these Nazi upstarts. But then again much of Europe still wants to appease terriorist groups by doing nothing to stop them…And being critical of those who do. And we wonder how the Nazis got started in the first place.
Just a thought or two.
Well, I guess Swiss modelers shouldn’t be allowed to build any millitary vehicle, since they are neutral [:D]
Just to show how stupid those restrictions are… ofcourse in Germany an Austria, modelers and contests don’t have much choice, because the swastika (amond other “nazi” symbols) are against the law.
Neither would be modelers Austria, Sweden, Turkmenistan, Laos, Irelandm Liechtenstein and till WW II the United States as George Washington said:
“It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances with any portion of the foreign world…”
But that is exactly the point that started the thread it is about models being entered into a contest in GERMANY, those are the rules of the game there.
Don’t like them than don’t enter your Model as simple as that.
Doesn’t have to go into a thread that raves about the rights and wrongs and the stupidity of nations, etc.
One final word from me on this.
For me the lesson about WW II is not about the Nazi’s or the Hakenkreuz, it is about the actual events that happened and why they happened.
Doesn’t matter if it happened in Bangladesh, Germany or where ever, neither does it matter if the leading party was National Socialists, Republicans, Tories or The Green with Pink Polka Dot party.
Nor does it matter if their symbol was a Hakenkreuz, White Dove or Micky Maus for all I care.
The lesson is not in the symbols or what they called themselves and that is why I kinda agree with the ban of certain symbols, gestures, etc because we need to focue on WHAT and WHY it happened not on the ICONS.
And what happened in the 1930’s Germany can and WILL happen again, the most likely place are where people think it can never happen to them or their neighbours.
Just my final 2 cents worth of thought.
schoonerbumm,
the song you are thinking of is by Tom Lehrer, here it is, enjoy
"Gather round as I sing you of Werner von Braun
A man whose allegiance
is ruled by expedience
Call him a Nazi and he won’t even frown
Nazi, Schmazi says Werner von Braun
Don’t say that he’s hypocritical
Say rather that he’s apolitical
‘Once ze rockets go up, who cares where zey come down?
That’s not my department’ says Werner von Braun.
Some have harsh words for this man of renown
But some say our attitude
Should be one of gratitude
Like the widows and cripples of old London town
Who owe their large pensions to Werner von Braun
You too can be such a hero
If you can count backward to zero
‘In English unt German, I know how to count down
Unt I’m learning Chinese!’ says Werner von Braun"
joe
HansV
[quote]
[Posted: Today, 16:23:50
if i may ,i will give my 2 cents on it from my personal Dutch point of view.
is it so easy to forget millions of lifes are distroyed cause of this symbol?.
it isn’t mentioned once in this topic.
not only European but American lifes as well./quote]
You obviously havn’t read all of the posts in the thread. From your Dutch point of view that seems to be all knowing of pain and suffering, you are forgetting about the sacrifices of those that made it possible for you the live in peace.
I have one grandfather who was in the pacific and one who landed on Utah Beach during Overlord. I am only alive because of a blessing. Either one of those men could have been killed and changed my family forever. Most of my family would not be here if they had not made it home.
F you and your small outlook on world history. You would be flying a Nazi flag if it wasn’t for us stupid americans who sacrificed a generation of our finest to protect and free Europe. Never once have we or the British and Canadians been thanked for our efforts. How about the Aussies etc, we died in wave after wave of youthful, talented human beings for a cause so far away from home.
Europe…so content in their own independence and progressive thought…people that think like that are not worthy of our dead boys. I wouldn’t trade a single American for a thousand ungreatful Europeans.
I appologize to the group, but I won’t stand for any any anti Allied bs and I will attack it like the plague. It hits me like stone in the face and I cannot stop it.
The line has just been crossed!!!
I have requested that this thread be locked or deleted…like it or not.
Yes, I second that. Let’s delete this thread.
Dave
sorry Robert,
I know I am responsible for burning the thread, but any references to America not doing its part will throw me right off the edge.
This forum isn’t more important than the men and women of The United States of America that buried a generation of souls in the soil all over Europe.
We have earned the right to paint a god damned swastika on our historical models. We Freed the world from of it. Screw you stupid bastards.
I am not going to make a further statement on this isuue. Those judged to be anti American will logged as such.
Some small correction: we Austrians are neutral too, though, we speak German but we face a different government then the ones in Germany.
However, I saw yesterday the kit of that huge German submarine (u-boat) from Revell which amounts to some 1 meters in building size. It is interesting to note the symbol on the kit box: the swastika has been blocked out from the flagg.
I wonder whether the whole flag decals are inside the box or are they disguised too?
Katzennahrung
Not that I mind because I started it but it will be never a good idea to remove discussions. We are discussing about illegal symbols and doing the same with threads - he?
Everybody may read up the thread and make up his mind eventually from the writings. I do not see the problem.
Oh yes, the forum is about model building right. However, it is not that easy.
Katzennahrung
For good or bad it is history,nothing can change it. Each to his own.
Hatewall,
i have nothing against a swastika on models,i do have something against people wearing it.
please read my reply again and take notice on my last sentence.
as mentioned before i live on Hells Highway inbetween several allied war cemeterys which i visit once or twice a year.
not thankfull for my freedom??,read my reply again.
““F you and your small outlook on world history””"
did this topic need calling names?think not
""Never once have we or the British and Canadians been thanked for our efforts. “”
visit the buriel grounds in Holland once and you immideatly know this what you stated in so untrue!
plan a stay in Holland and watch what happens on liberation day we still celebrate every year.
i’m having a small look on the world???
you don’t know what you’re talking about my friend!
Sorry, Katzennahrung, I didn’t meen to compare Austria with Germany, I just named Swiss, because their neutrality is almost a symbol on its own [:)]
And oh, (I’m sure it has been said here before), the swastika is NOT an invention of the Nazi’s, the symbol isn’t even German to begin with, it is one of the oldest symbols in existence, found all over the worl, from India to South America and far older than for instance the crucifix.
Hey, just remember something about that last symbol, you shouldn’t wear it !!! It was a device of torture and death, probably thousands have been killed with it…and yet it is one of the most respected symbols of the world today.
This has to be one of the most emotionally charged subjects of all time. IMO it would be more troubling if people didn’t have much to say about it. There is something good in these exchanges, and that is the communication, especially when people want to let others know that everyone in their respective country or group does not share the same positive or negative feelings and sensitivities. Divorces and wars happen when we stop talking to each other. BTW anybody got a good joke about model building?
Well said…Thank you, jamnett!
Dan
Stalin first rose to power in 1922 as secretary general of the Communist Party. Using administrative skills and ruthless maneuvering, Stalin rid himself of all potential rivals in the party, first by having many of them condemned as “deviationists,” and later by ordering them executed.
To ensure his position and to push forward “socialism in one country,” he put the Soviet Union on a course of crash collectivization and industrialization. An estimated 25 million farmers were forced onto state farms. Collectivization alone killed as many as 14.5 million people, and Soviet agricultural output was reduced by 25 percent, according to some estimates.
In the 1930s, Stalin launched his Great Purge, ridding the Communist Party of all the people who had brought him to power. Soviet nuclear physicist and academician Andrei Sakharov estimated that more than 1.2 million party members – more than half the party – were arrested between 1936 and 1939, of which 600,000 died by torture, execution or perished in the Gulag.
I don’t see a ban anywhere on using the hammer and sickle or red star symbols. Where are the memorials to all of these people who were killed, tortured or forced into slave labor until death? Nobody cares about this because it happened in a communist country and Stalin did it to his own people. Does this make Stalin a lesser tyrant than Hitler? I’m assuming that body count doesn’t really matter when one reaches this level of cruelty. If we are truly concerned with the loss of life that certain icons are associated with, shouldn’t the hammer and sickle or the red star be banned as well?
No, we don’t care what happened to the people of the former Soviet Union, because it wasn’t our suffering, it was someone else’s. Where is the sympathy for these people?