I knew that the swastika was a banned symbol in several countries, but allow me to ask, is it a universal ban? I mean if a photo from the Nazi period were published in a history book, would the image of the swastika be excised?
Al.
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I finished a model of a U-boat a few months ago. I did not include the Kriegsmarine naval ensign (flag) on the jackstaff and the model looks fine without it. Of course it is accurate because they wouldn’t have the flag raised most of the time.
But a German plane or ship with a swastica painted on would not be accurately depicted by a model without the swastica.
The Kriegsmarine was probably the least “nazified” of the German military arms. Did the painting of the swastica on the deck of the Bismark make it an evil ship? No, and most of the officers and crew of the Bismark were not evil either.
I think what really matters is who you show it to.
Of course doing a model or dio of something like an SS Totenkopf soldier in a glorious post is questionable.
Dave
this subject has been going around in modeling circles for many years now.
I doubt there are a bunch of anti-semitic neo nazis running around building models to push their agenda. They are ususally involved in other activities.
If it makes you feel good to make your models without the symbols, then by all means, do it. If you think that an FW-190 or a Tiger tank without markings isn’t going to offend a Jewish person every now and then, you are a moron. If you are offended by these markings, then you are an even bigger moron.
Pretending it didn’t happen doesn’t make it so. When we model it, we aren’t celebrating it, just doing our best to capture a moment in history as accurately as possible.
Katzennahrung,
If you want to model a vessel that could have been a slave ship, then do it. Have that respect for the subject you are modeling and make it a model worthy of the heavy subject you have chosen. Just don’t start buying slaves and keeping them in the backyard. Buidling a slave ship doesn’t make you pro-slavery. Are the people that made Amistad white devil slave masters and racists? Of course not.
A historically accurate model of the Bismark isn’t a celebration of Adolf Hitler. Don’t forget about the crew and the nation of people that served in factories and died, not for Nazism, but for their country. Thousands of German soldiers and civilians served in WWII out of fear of a leader that would have them shot or hung on a meat hook for non-complience.
That symbol and it’s history should remain as a constant reminder for the suffering it caused on both sides of the pond. Both axis and allied.
In my opinion, the European stance on Nazi symbols is a weak attempt at making an apology for something that they shouldn’t have to apologize for.
My Grandfather was a Staff Sgt during the Normandy landings at Utah beach. I can tell you, he has no harsh feeling towards Germans and would gladly look at a model of a German tank or plane. He would probably tell you a really good story or two about an experience he had or what was inaccurate on the model.
Long rant, but this stuff frustrates me. If you have a little maniac laugh going while you place your deacls, then maybe there is a bit of a problem going on inside, but otherwise make good models. Make them the best you can.
Well said Hatewall.
Sean
Personally, I build accurate German war machines out of respect not for the people who were fighting to further the Nazi cause, but to honor those who were fighting to defend their country. Probably a strange point of view for an American who’s grandfather was a radio operator on a medium bomber in WWII (don’t know which type, he didn’t talk too much about his involvement in the war and he died a few years back). I could only imagine what the common German people went through during our strategic daylight bombing raids over their homeland. I know, I’m strange.
Hello:
I have to add some comments otherwise I feel people get a wrong perception of Germany or my country Austria (which has a different government by the way).
I think you mean by the “swastika” the “Hakenkreuz”. There is no prihibition of such kind of things in our history books. However, what you are not allowed to commit: you may not use it lets say on your bag or on your car. People are also sensitive to things like “Ehre, Treue, Vaterland” (glory,faithfulness,fatherland). You may use such words in single circumstances but not all three at once because that would be considerd as nazi-speech and is banned and will put you to court in extreme cases.
After all: in Austria we are living in a free country but our free speech is sometimes not that free speech of Americans. Surely, you may say what you want in Austria but in some situations you rather need a good laywer too which costs money.
Regards,
Siegfried Gonzi
PS: The last issue of “Tamiyas modeling magazine from Great Britian” was quite brutal. First they featured an outstanding “Bergepanzer” (the model won the gold medal). Then they discussed a so called “Schnellboat” (“fast attack” boat with a swastika symbol) and last but not least they featured a SS Totenkopf Scharfuehrer. I can somehow understand when one builds a technical device but I cannot understand why one is building a figure of a SS-Scharfuehrer.
Katzennahrung, maybe this will help. In the U.S. there are laws against certain things being displayed for the public to see or something’s being said in public. And there are some guidelines. If the item or thing is considered to be art or a historic representation than it gets more freedom. And if it is found to be offensive or bad than you can get fined or in some cases sued. In modeling contest rules are rules and if you want in you follow the rules, or you don’t pay and you don’t play. I have to agree with Hatewall, but that’s just me. American’s are supposed to be tolerant, or at least that’s what my Government teacher would say.
BTW, A really good friend of mine, who is still in the Air Force, told me something very disturbing. While in France, not more than 6 months after 9/11, he was at a big park that was having some kind of outdoor event. He described it as a carnival type of atmosphere, were people were all dressed up in funny costumes. Well, he saw two people there dressed up as the Twin Towers. With the planes smashed into them and the whole 9 yards. And they would dance around and falling down, it took everything he had not to injure those people. All I can say is different people different POV.
It has nothing to do with model making but I may add some comments. A lot of people in Europe are rather anti-American. Not so much in a radical way and they wouldn’t take force against any Americans. But a whole lot of people believe that Americans do not have any culture. Or they often do not believe me when I tell them that indeed a lot of Americans do model building; they are not solely on Earth to play games. If I enter a bar in Austria I will bet that none of them in such a bar has ever heard of Kant or Hegel or philosphers like kind of. So, we still have people in old Europe who are more interested in playing video games or drinking or,…
I can only say for myself: I am believing quite the conrary. People around me are often astound when I tell them that in America there a lot of amateur astronomers and they have some assoziations against light-pollution.
I haven’t took part in German speaking newsgroup dicussions for years because how can I say: they are more bussy with all kind of strict usenet rules than any discussions at all. I personally like it much more to discuss with Americans they are in my opinion much more open in a whole lot of things.
After my PhD in physics I will apply for a grant and would like to go for some years to America if possible; I have some colleagues who took that way (one of my former colleagues went to MIT even and is now back in private industry in Austria).
Regards,
Siegfried (Katzennahrung)
Siegfried, ein swastika ist ein Hakenkreuz.
History is written by the victors, but it is not the victors who object to the Hakenkreuz, but the losers, and understandably in some instances the victims. The Nazis cast a stain on European history, and the swastika is a reminder of the the guilt that many older Germans still feel for what happened, regardless of whether they were involved.
Every nation has any number of skeletons in their closet, even the victors of WWII. If you deny the events of history, you leave to door open to making the same mistakes again.
Karl
Something loosely related.
The hakenkreuz is a distortion of the true swastika(sanskrit) or “manji” as called in japanese.
No it is NOT the same and cannot even easoiy be mistaken for the original asian symbol that was used widely till WW II by groups like the boy scouts of america.
Actually there are 2 types of Swastika or Manji, but that goes into asian philosopy and religion. Most maps in asia use the Swastika to designate the location of buddhist temples.
Shorinshi Kempo of Japan is currently changing their logo and is dropping the “Manji” as too many people are not informed enough to know the difference between the Hakenkreuz and the true Swastika.
HTH.
This is a volatile subject, as stated previously, historic symbols have different meanings to different people and cultures.
I see nothing wrong with using correct markings on an aircraft tail or armor piece, or even a figure. However, in any country, in any hobby, there are individuals who will choose to utilize historic symbolism to promote thier idealology, or to pursue an ulterior motive. That is wrong, and bothers me. However, determining that is the hard part, and, to an extent, is why certain symbols are banned in certain countries. It’s that country’s way of dealing with a potentially volatile situation. That being said, in many instances, the banning of a symbol simply encourages those with the desires to display it or use it for non-historical purposes.
I was born an raised on an Indian reservation…my ancestors were forced onto little strips of worthless land by Federal soldiers right after the Civil War. I personally don’t find a figure of a Union soldier, or a Confederate soldier, to be offensive. In part, because it didn’t happen to me, or my parents, or grand-parents, or even great-grandparents. In fact, they all went on to fight for that very country in WW1, WW2, and Vietnam.
Something that many people forget…is that in certain instances, specific groups of people coined as ‘the enemy’, were nothing more than regular soldiers forced to fight for their country…good or bad.
I’ve met Waffen SS veterans living in the states, who told me they were drafted into the Wehrmacht, and only volunteered for the Waffen SS because they got better food and better equipment. Its written in many accounts of high-profile German pilots, generals, and soldiers being VERY GERMAN, but very anti-Nazi at the same time. Those people exist, I’ve met them personally, and it’s not a matter of someone backtracking to cover up their mistakes of the past.
With regards to the symbolism on the tails of Luftwaffe aircraft, that was a political symbol…the identifier of a political party. If our own Republicans and Democrats were to go off the deep end (some will argue that they already have), then maybe the now-harmless elephant and donkey symbols could one day be considered bad images.
This can obvously digress into the whole political correctness issue, but it boils down to using common sense…a short story…when I was Director of the NJ Aviation Museum, we had a large Jewish population visit the museum on an annual basis. We received a large, beautiful model of the Hindenburg, completely 100% accurate with all her red and white tail markings. One of the mothers got very upset and was chastizing me for allowing that to be displayed in public place. I felt very torn about it, because it was obvious to see both sides of the story. However, before I got a chance to respond, the Rabbi of the group, a wonderful man well into his 80s, spoke up and stated that it was a dirigible, a symbol of national pride at the time…he admitted that even he, as a boy in Germany in the 1930s, was amazed and proud of the technology his country boasted. He then went on to relate his experiences in some of the camps during WW2, he survived Treblinka, but most of his family did not. He ended by para-phrasing a quote from George Santana, that unless we remind ourselves of the bad things that have happened in our past, there is no way we will ever be to prevent it from happening again. It was a profound statement, and a point of view that was completely unexpected, but it was the common sense, logical, and intelligent thing to do. Who am I to pass judgement? I can’t, and I feel I don’t deserve that right, because I wasn’t there, and I never experienced the terrible things that this man experienced in his life. Yet, he showed great diginity, tolerance, and an understanding of the importance of history, good or bad, and how it can influence our thinking even decades after its happened.
Read into what you will, but if someone who suffered at the hands of evil men can relate the importance of history, then I think we should too.
Best Regards,
Jeff Herne
Something else that I think we should remember…
Although this thread has remained civil and thought-provoking, we’re really tossing a live grenade around. This is a subject that can digress rapidly, and in some cases, me included, we did a little bit.
Perhaps we should let it lie and getback to modeling?
Just my opinion…
Jeff
The banning of the public displaying of the Swastika in most European countries is designed to prevent incitement of racial hatred, and to protect the sensitivities of certain people.
However, the displaying of such insignia on scale models is surely not a deliberate attempt to incite racial hatred or otherwise, merely an attempt to create a historically accurate replica. A change in the laws is overdue, in my opinion.
Sean, I’m gonna have to agree to disagree with you on the above. I too, am also former military. I’ve never killed anyone, nor have I been in combat, so I cannot lay the claim to being a “Warrior” as I have not been put in that position. HOWEVER, I see absolutely nothing wrong with glorifying those who are warriors, both past and present, as they have sacrificed much to ensure we have what we have today. One of the reasons you and I are able to discuss this point, on a mostly unregulated internet, is due to warriors starting back in the 1700’s.
On the other hand, would I classify a Nazi as a warrior to be glorified? No. They were warriors, but, IN MY OPINION, they were false warriors as their goal was evil. Evil is subjective based on where you are sitting, but, exterminating an entire race is evil to me and I will never model an SS subject. I may model a German subject and have the swastika on it, but only if accurate. There were men in uniform for Germany that were warriors and were fighting for their country, that had nothing to do with the perversion caused by the Nazi’s.
As for false leaders, I see your point. But, not all wars were started by those seeking glory.
This has turned into one of the most thought-provoking topics I’ve seen on the web. It has indeed been a civil discussion of a potentially volatile topic. I’m happy to be included in such a group.
I was particularly interested in the story of the people in France masquerading as the twin towers. I’ve been trying to figure out how I would have reacted if I’d been present at the event in question. I’d like to think I would have turned my back and left. I’m not sure, though, that I could have restrained myself from commenting that such behavior is callous, inconsiderate, and, above all else, stupid.
I had a similar reaction to a story I read during the early weeks of the present conflict in Iraq. Somebody had broken into an American military cemetery in France and spray-painted on one of the monuments the words “America - come dig up your trash. It’s polluting our soil.”
I suspect the individuals responsible for both those stunts are among those to whom Katzennahrung alluded: people whose perceptions of the United States and the American people is distorted to the point of caricature. All Americans should be concerned that this is happening.
As usual, there are several sides to this. On the few trips I’ve made to Europe I’ve witnessed some behavior by American tourists that I found pretty embarrassing. On more than one occasion I’ve taken gracious people of the host countries aside and said, “Please don’t think all Americans act like that.” (The usual response is “Of course they don’t. We know that.”) For us to base our opinions of the French people on the behavior of such tasteless ignoramuses would be equally inappropriate.
From my standpoint this thread has been an encouraging antidote to my own past experiences with certain model builders who WERE trying to promote a political agenda. (“Fantasize about” probably would be a better term than “promote.” They didn’t seriously think Nazism was going to make a comeback in the U.S. - but they liked to dream about marching around in cool uniforms and sending folks they didn’t like to concentration camps.) So far we haven’t heard from anybody like that. I rather doubt that we will - but they’re out there.
A few years ago I built a model of the Graf Spee, based on the excellent kit from Italeri. I decided to represent the ship as she appeared during the Spanish Civil War. Photos taken at the time made it clear that, in addition to having red, white, and black stripes on her main battery turrets, she had a huge carved eagle on her stern. When the National Socialists came to power, the eagle got a swastika added to his claws. (Also the coat of arms of the von Spee family also appeared on each side of the bow, and some sort of coat of arms was painted on each of the main turrets - but I haven’t found any photos that are clear enough to show just what they were.) As I was making and painting that eagle I felt an odd, almost indescribable sensation - not exactly guilt, but a little bit of discomfort. To omit that eagle (or the swastika in the national ensign) would have been inaccurate, and on a certain aesthetic level the eagle made the ship look quite attractive. But…
Whenever I’ve taken the model to club meetings or shows I’ve made it a point to say - as I’ve done in this forum, I think - that I see an irony in the fact that two of the twentieth century’s most despicable governments, Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union, built some of the best looking warships ever. Nobody, to my knowledge, has yet taken offense at my little Graf Spee. If anybody ever does, I hope the result will be a civilized discussion and a meeting of the minds.
I’ve rambled enough about this. I don’t have a simple solution to the problem - other than the observation that talking about it openly is the best way to deal with it.
Rocky–or should I call you Mister The Goat? [;)],
Just to clarify, I certainly didn’t mean to implicate all leaders who have taken their countries to war have been seeking their own glory–only that far too many wars have been fought for reasons that have little to do with the security of the state and its people, and much more to do with glory or greed or hubris.
To wage war against injustice or to wage a war of a defensive nature are reasons I can get behind. To invade another state–that crosses a line I’m not willing to cross as a citizen.
That said, when I was in uniform, it was not my position to question the righteousness of any war I was asked to fight–my duty to do what was right extended to my actions on the battlefield, and those of my subordinates. I had the right to refuse an illegal order–but not an illegal war. It’s a distinction few understand about men and women in uniform and their burdens of duty.
But I choose to put myself in that role. Many soldiers of ‘evil’ regiemes simply have no choice. I say we shouldn’t glorify warriors, because I say we shouldn’t villanise them either. They are people who have an awful duty to perform, and we who are protected by them should never lose sight of that.
So perhaps we agree…or perhaps we disagree…but I do respect your opinion on the matter.
Sean
[tup]
[tup]
[tup] Fewer and fewer understand it, as there are fewer and fewer of us who have served in uniform.
[tup]
hmmmm, we do agree.
no, we don’t, we disagree.
well, no, actually we do agree.
but, no, actually we…
oh heck. let’s go have a beer and talks ships. i have a 1/700 FFG-7 that needs to have it’s deck painted!![(-D]
Here here!!
Back to this U-boat…(ut-oh)… 
Jeff
Back to Mr. Katzennahrung’s question….
I have had several discussions with a lawyer (my wife) on the issues of unpopular, but not illegal, symbolism (but which you still may get sued for in a civil court).
In America, the display of a swastika, confederate flag, scantily dressed woman, etc. is not specifically illegal, but can have legal repercussions. The discriminator is “context”.
Technically, the display of an unpopular national symbol on a model of a vehicle in a model show, in itself, would not be considered an illegal or immoral act. Spray painting it on a public wall, or placing the model in a diorama showing the vehicle crashing through the front door of a synagogue would be considered differently.
Of course, the devil is in the definition of “context”. This is where trial lawyers get rich. “Context” has become the victim of Political Correctness, a zero tolerance for anything “offensive”. “Offensive” being in the eyes of a beholder with a lawyer.
… the crux of the matter is that any organization that holds public meetings (or is selling a product) is a target for a lawsuit. The organizers have to make their own decisions, placard their disclaimers, create their own standards and enforce them. As participants, we need to respect their decisions.
The difficulty of defining context is even exhibited here, in the modeling community. We’ve seen a wide range of views on standards for modeling subjects.
As a side, one of my favorite anecdotes related to context is that of Werner Klemperer, a German/Jewish born conductor/actor presented with role of Colonel Klink in Hogan’s Heroes.
“The “Nazi connotations” problem Klemperer addressed by crafting Klink into a universal character. From pre-war Prussian aristocracy he adopted Klink’s monocle and swagger stick, as well as his bombastic manner. From his repertoire of accents, he selected stage English only slightly tinged with German. He was also keenly aware of the traumatic effect that any reminder of Nazism, however minute or underplayed, could have on those who had suffered at their hands. He therefore did something unique among actors: he insisted that the character he portrayed never come out on top.
The need for a seamless blend of farce and action drama Klemperer also addressed. A certain degree of unreality was necessary to offset the more violent or fantastical plot elements. But certain central elements—most importantly, the character of Klink—had to be believable for the show to work. How, then, to portray someone who is alert to the smallest slight against his authority, yet overlooks entire tunnels and airplanes? Klemperer’s ingenious solution borders on the revelatory to anyone who’s ever struggled to present apparently obvious facts to determinedly oblivious superiors: he demonstrates the infinite capacity of management to overlook the inconvenient.”
Of course the irony is that the original concept for the show was for “Sgt. Bilko” type operators in an American prison. The producers thought that the American public would reject criminals coming out on top, so the setting was changed to a NAZI POW camp.
How context changes……