Miniature and CGI models in movies

[Don_Stauffer]

Not to minimize the hard work and effort that goes into any CGI production, but it’s a bit easier to convincingly animate primarily black & white spaceships (mostly composed of basic geometric shapes), especially when there is no ‘real world’ basis for comparision for the viewer

The challenge for a film like Red Tails, is that almost everyone has seen actual WWII film footage and have a somewhat prejudiced view of what P-51’s and B-17’s should look like. That plus need to create organic backgrounds (trees & grass, etc) instead of the stark background of space, as in Star Wars, etc.

All that being said, as the technology continues to improve I’m sure the ‘reality gap’ between CGI and the real world will continue to shrink.

Mark

But the flight dynamics simulation still stinks. The Red Tails flying is as bad as that from Pearl Harbor

[dmk]

At the same time, getting to see a few of those original minatures when they were on a museum tour several years ago actually helped me to relax a little when it came to making something “just like” the original filming model. After collecting several books for reference pics and looking through them to figure out colors and details to add, I was surprised how many of the models’ panel lines, including the Star Destroyer, were actually done in pencil ( that’s right, most of them weren’t scribed as I’d imagined )! I even noticed a few small bubbles on parts for the Y-wing that had been recast from what I think were tank parts.

While I guess some folks would have been disappointed to find out about such details, I was actually happy to find them. As I mentioned, I was able to relax a little bit regarding trying to make SF kits because finding those “flaws” in the originals made me realize that even the professionals were still modelers and had to deal with the same issues as the rest of us, just on a schedule, and just how silly it was to try to make something “perfect” when odds were the original you’re trying to replicate isn’t “perfect” to begin with.

I noticed some of the same things while researching sci-fi models/props. Another thing is many times these models were damaged and repaired fairly crudely.

Some of the models had very visible seams, parts missing, paint flaking. Now some of this may have happened over the years, but a lot of these models were built quickly on tight schedules and not meant to be used for close up examination.

While film can reveal many flaws, it can also hide them.

[stikpusher]

I noticed some of the same things while researching sci-fi models/props. Another thing is many times these models were damaged and repaired fairly crudely.

Some of the models had very visible seams, parts missing, paint flaking. Now some of this may have happened over the years, but a lot of these models were built quickly on tight schedules and not meant to be used for close up examination.

While film can reveal many flaws, it can also hide them.

Yes indeed, it cuts both ways. The few movie model props that I have seen up close and personal are usually done nowhere near as well as what you will see displayed at your LHS or certainly on the contest table. I suppose that is the “magic” we all enjoy in movies. When something flashes by on the screen in a two or three second shot it is not subject to the same scrutiny as something in front of us on a display shelf/table. And yes Sci Fi does have an advantage because it has no reality yardstick for comparison of the actual subject. Those replicating real objects in either CGI or Miniature have both the real subject accuracy to contend with and in the case of vehicles, motion dynamics governed by the laws of physics. A good example (aside from Pearl Harbor and Red Tails) was in We Were Soldiers. In that movie A-4 Skyhawks and F-100 Super Sabers were created with CGI and shown making Close Air Support bombing and strafing runs. The subject aircraft looked fairly realistic, but some of the flight manuevers were just a bit too snappy and instantaneous. Even the Blue Angels or Thunderbirds dont get quite that response from their mounts.

[Huxy]

Me and a friend are experimenting with this right now.

Here’s our first try, Panther 1/48 scale on bluescreen and CGI background:

And a short Youtube clip of the initial try as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lR097L2Dqoc&feature=youtu.be

[stikpusher]

I found this shot of some of the “miniatures” used in the 1969 movie Battle of Britain. They make 1/24 look like braile scale[;)]

Some of the miniature work was quite effective and realistic in that film.

[dmk]

I wonder what scale that Hurricane is?

[stikpusher]

I wonder what scale that Hurricane is?

I dont know, but check out this even bigger P-51 from Empire of the Sun

[tigerman]

Tora Tora Tora is what got me interested in military history and model building. I think it still holds up pretty well today. Go check out the models they made for that movie. Pretty amazing work.

That being said, there is obviously things in CGI can emulate that models or real life can’t, such as the later shot of the beaches in Saving Private Ryan.

[lordrings]

A friend of mine worked as a modeller in film. His 1st job was for a cult film called Frankenhooker. He eventually did work on the 2nd Batman movie (he did the Batboat), Terminator 2 (he worked on the "nuking of L.A. scene), and The Phantom Menace. I still have a resin peice he gave me from when he worked on Starship Troopers, an asteroid knocks off part of the spaceship - I have that part.

I don’t think he works in movies anymore. I always envied him that job, I tell ya.

[Hans_von_Hammer]

dmk:

I wonder what scale that Hurricane is?

I dont know, but check out this even bigger P-51 from Empire of the Sun

Just a SWAG on my part, but I’m guessing 1/5th scale for the Hurricane… There was an outfit here in Iowa some years ago, that called themselves the 1/5 Air Force. They put on an annual show called “Striking Back” at the Ankeny Air Expo that featured dogfights between Zekes and Hellcats, ground attacks and bomb-runs with B-25s, and Sherman tanks shooting up the island defenses, all in 1/5th scale RC aircraft, to include carrier take-offs, anti-aircraft fire, and pilots “bailing out” of their stricken aircraft…

The tanks weren’t R/C though… They had a one-man crew. Turrets worked, guns fired, tracks were working, the whole deal… There’s a fair video of it on the net, as viewed from the nose-cam of one of the B-25s… Starts with a 1/5th(?) scale C-47 taxiing by, that you’d swear was real (except for the sound). That is, until the 1/1 scale legs walk between the C-47 and the nose-cam, lol… Then you see the take-off and the flight, complete with fighters making passes and AA-fire…

I’ll see if I can find it again… I know they were Byron R/C aircraft…

[stikpusher]

The Battle of Britain Hurricane looks like it is slightly bigger than sized for a “GI Joe”. Maybe like 1/10 or so. But that Empire of the Sun Mustang looks like around 1/5 scale.

[Hans_von_Hammer]

The Battle of Britain Hurricane looks like it is slightly bigger than sized for a “GI Joe”. Maybe like 1/10 or so. But that Empire of the Sun Mustang looks like around 1/5 scale.

Yeah, think you’re right about the Hurri… Did some checking and the Empire of the Sun R/C P-51s were Byron 1/5th scale R/C birds… Including the B-29 that later crashed at a show… Although “FiFi” also appeared in that movie…

'Course, there were two or three 1/1 P-51s in that movie too, one of which was flown by the late, great Squadron Leader Ray Hanna, of “The Old Flying Machine Company”-fame (and founding member of the RAF’s “Red Arrows”).

Empire of the Sun 1/5th scale Mustang in the forced-perspective fly-by:

!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft Profiles/P-51s/P-51flybyByron.jpg)

Cut to “1/1 scale” fly-by with Ray Hanna:

!(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v233/HansvonHammer/Aircraft Profiles/P-51s/P-51RayHannaFly-by-1.jpg)