re the1/35 DML Kursk Panther-- this might be a dumb question, any evidence of zimmerit use during this battle? Also, I am using the DML LSSAH crew for this Panther–any advice, special considerations for LSSAH for Kursk?
Also I recieved a Tamiya Brumbar for X-mas-- will DML MkIV tracks fit the drive sprocket? Thx !
Dog
No zimmerit, it began fall of 43. As for the tracks it’s tough to call, but I’ve used Tamiya indy tracks on DML’s Panther.
thx tigerman–actually I was asking @ the tracks for the Brumbar-- I didn’t know Tamiya made separate link tracks-- any problem w/ using the DML late war Pz IV tracks for the Tamiya Brumbar?
Panthers at Kursk were in the 51 and 52 Panzer Battalions. The SS divisions at Kursk did not have Panthers. They did have Tigers though. Interestingly, this flips the later situation on its head, in which the SS divisions did have integral Panthers, but not Tigers – and the Tigers were in separate battalions.
Thx Larry–I appreciate your post— guess I have a few options then:
1 Use the LSSAH crew for a future Kursk Tiger project.
2 Convert this Panther to the Normandy front & use the LSSAH crew
3 Convert the SS crew to Wehrmacht& use with the Kursk Panther(are uniforms similar except for camo v black?)
4 ??
if anyone can advise me , its the people on this forum! – any ideas appreciated
Dog
This pic is from the Great Tiger I link
http://www.alanhamby.com/tiger.html
Uniform…well they where not!
They where in battle.
Time and season, then just go ahead with what ever was available…
Also I recieved a Tamiya Brumbar for X-mas-- will DML MkIV tracks fit the drive sprocket? Thx !
No way You’ll need it to change tamyias sprocket with dragons and than there will be no problem !
I think I’d just build your early D (it’s an early D, isn’t it?) for Kursk and look for some Heer 1943 panzer crewmen, and save the LSSAH guys for a build that they are appropriate for. (What tank are they illustrated as riding on the box?)
The LSSAH crew is not pictured on a tank on the box-- yes it is an early D – as far as a tank for the LSSAH crew, would a Pz III J or Pz IV H or J work as well ?
Dog
there is an option to have this Panther come from a pz regiment of the Gross Deutschland-- are the GD panzer crew uniform style closer to Wehrmacht or SS?
(directly put, can the LSSAH crew join the GD?)
51st Panzer was associated with Grossdeutschland. They were elite, but they were Heer.
The uniforms were different. The cut of the Waffen SS black panzer uniform was different from the Heer black uniform, and the SS also provided their crews with camo uniforms, which the Heer did not (though the Heer guys sometimes acquired their own camo uniforms or made them out of the camo tents issued by the army).
Many of the Waffen SS guys had already gotten their camo unforms by Kursk, though it continued to be worn with the black outfits. Are the guys you have in camo?
For Kursk you mean? LSSAH had a couple of Pz I (!), a few Pz II, some Pz III(lg), some Stugs (don’t use tank crew for these), many PzIV(lg), and some Tigers.
“Lg” means lang. The Germans didn’t get specific about which exact mark each tank was. Frinstance, the Pz IV (lg) could be either the G or the H, or even the F2.
http://www.internetmodeler.com/2005/march/first-looks/DML_LAH.php
right-- they are wearing the Oakleaf summer pattern-- I’d like to keep this a Kursk Panther , but I obviously would like to use these guys -(Normandy?) Thanks again Larry
Dog
According to http://www.alanhamby.com/tiger.html the picture depicts LS Commanders.
I have no second reference.
Zim indicates autumn 43.
But at Kursk the troops where veterans.
The point was that these guys did not wear a “Uni-form”, they dressed easy.
Warm, waterproof and many more functional aspects carried longer then regiments.
Later in Normandie the LS where re-equipped.
DML’s Panther D is supposed to be one of the first 200+ that were built, as all available Panthers were sent to the Kursk Salient. The road wheels and tracks are both the early Panther types, so you can’t use it in a Normandy dio as a refurbished D. You would be hard pressed to find references for a D there anyway. Remember of all the Panthers fielded in the Battle of Kursk, only 40 were operational at the end of day 1, so you really are limited to this battle for the kit vehicle unless you plan on building the protoype Coelian AA vehcle.
As to the fit out of a D at Kursk, based on the DML kit you will need to:
1 Replace the engine deck intakes. The DML ones are from their Ausf A sprue, and are incorrect later symetrical ones. MIG Productions makes a replacement resin set at a fair price, offset the cost against the savings on intake grills as none were fitted to these vehicles.
2 Add a second headlight as per Ron Volstad’s box art. A spare is in the kit despite the instructions telling you it is unneeded.
3 carve off the curved rain guard on the gunners mantlet sights and the gun travel limiter on the hull roof behind the mantlet
4 Fill the keyhole on the rear loading hatch cover
5 Remove and fill the key hole fitting on the commanders cupola hatch and reposition the hatch so the hinge is at 2 o’clock not 3 o’clock as per the kit (this is easy if the hatch is to be closed, but further work will be required if it is to be opened without a figure hiding everything).
6 Add the rectangular heat exchange plates to the inside of the rear stowage boxes. The later type are included in the kit from the Ausf A , but they are the concave type not the convex. Some AM PE sets have the correct ones but these can be scratchbuilt
7 Add front fender extensions (again refer to Ron’s artwork). As this was the debut battle for these vehicles, they had not yet been lost - available as an AM part from companies like Armo, TMD, etc.
Make sure you use the early drive sprocket centres. The Jack block with the rubber band retainers (the x ones) were a prototype fitting and only a few had them at Kursk, and those that did also had the special sloped lid tool boxes - so best to use the standard fitting.
The DML Kursk crew could be used as is, as only close scrutiny will reveal the SS uniform. Alternately, you can modify the figures by changing the shape of the lapel, lengthening the jackets, filling the trouser seam and removing the trouser buttons to make them appear the Heer black uniform.
As to the DML tracks, I presume you have the old separate track set, not a donor kit? Are they the early pattern or late pattern? I believe Early tracks were not fitted to the Brummbar. Check any other DML Panzer IV based kit you have for spare drive sprockets. A few of their kits have both early and late types, and you may find a spare you can use for the Tamiya One. The Tamiya Brummbar is a mix of early and Mid production Brummbar’s
Thanks for your post Peter Thankfully ,I’m in the middle of another project right now, (FW190A3) so I’ll be able to research AM items & other considerations you mentioned for the Panther.
Are there any Heer Crew kits out there for Kursk? (I would guess Verlinden)
Alternatively, Would you advise Oak Leaf or Heer Splinter for the LSSAH kit crew uniforms? (Doubt I have the skill/patience to ‘tailor’ them as to your specs)
The Brummbar is pretty much OOB, rubber trax & all
Guess I’ll have to look into an AM drive sprocket/ track set— I think getting the DML MkIV Kursk might solve all of my problems-- Off subject, hope you don’t mind I’m a big All-Blacks fan !
Thanks again,
Dog
There are lots of figures out there, just depends how much you want to pay. Resin figures are quite expensive, and personally I can’t see the value of spending as much as the base vehicle kit on one or two figures - my personal opinion of course, there are many that will disagree. The work required to bring the SS uniform to Heer style is not that much, a little epoxy putty like Milliput (use the exacto blade handle to roll it thin using talcum powder to stop it sticking to the exacto handle) is all you need:
First, add the seam down the center of the back by scribing with the back of an Exacto blade.
Second, add a thin strip of putty to enlarge the collar slightly and to extend the tips to a point.
Third, add a strip down the side of the wrap to extend it further across the front at a slight diagonal and fill the existing seam on the wrap edge
Fourth, trim off the one or two buttons on the trouser pockets.
As to the All blacks - well there is no accounting for taste after all.
Looking at Kursk photos from the 503rd, due to the heat most crews stripped down to the uniform shirt anyway. I depicted the T1 in my signature in this way, modifying the figures to uniform shirts with rolled up sleeves.