If you have the dexterity to control air flow by finger pressure on the trigger, more power to you. I can’t. Dual action doesn’t mean dual variable action. A variable air valve could be used. But it would probably have a longer throw, and it would be a bugger to learn to use.
“While airbrushing always leave the air on trigger fully depressed, air always on.”
The reason some people like the Mac valve is that it allows them to alter the air flow right at the airbrush. I just reach over and adjust the regulator on my air line. Whatever floats your boat.
thats cool, i dont use a regulator i like to do it on the fly so you can vary spray pressure and whatnot as your painting
with the trigger type, it gives you lower air pressure when the needle is less open for fine lines etc and more pressure as you pull back for full coverage. its just not as controllable as the old style push button. because if you pull all the way back you are stuck with high pressure unless you have a regulator on your compressor i suppose.
Wow, I didn’t konw I was opening such a can of worms here. It sure seems like different airbrushes have different behaviors? I use my aztek 470 (yes, I know lots of people hate it) and it has at least 1/4" of travel, it seems to vary airflow to me. It does alow me to vary how much ‘strong’ the air is. It also has a dial in the rear that seems to behave like the MAC valve, that is it limits how much paint can come out, even with trigger pulled completely back.
Thanks for everyone’s input, I’m about as confused as before, but I’ve learned a lot! Perhaps the pistol grip grex behaves as those airbrushes that basically have on/off for air? Not having experience with other airbrushes, I had assumed all dual action brush actions are the same.
Hey, we’re all learning something. [:)] I didn’t know the Aztek had that much air control. It is a unique design. I suspect the knob on the back limits needle travel. A Mac valve limits air.
I looked at your web site and you do some beautiful work.
In deed, I learn something new today. There are significant difference in trigger action between Badger and others. I was intrigued by the comments that Don and Bill Grigg made about the push action of the trigger that it is merely an on-off for air flow. I took out my 5 internal mix, dual action airbrushes and do a subjective, non-scientific test this afternoon. The airbrushes are:
The air flow measurement instrument is my left hand palm. And my conclusion:
All the triggers, including the Badger, control the air flow AND the paint flow. Push down for air and pull back for paint.
All triggers have about the same travel distance, about 1/8 inch.
The air flow trigger action ARE NOT the same. For the Iwata and the H&S, the air flow varies with the down stroke until the last quarter travel. For the Badger and the PowerCat’s, the down trigger is more sensitive, some air flow change in the first quarter stroke which can be felt and controlled. After the first quarter, the trigger does not seem to control the air flow the rest 3/4 stroke.
The PowerCat 203 has a MAC (micro air control) valve which provides very graduate and line air flow control if you need it.
From Bill Grigg’s description of the Badger 100LG trigger, the Badger characteristic seems not Patriot only.
From the post by Waikong, the Aztek seems to have comparable air flow trigger action to the Iwata and H&S.
This seems to explain why Bill Grigg and Don Wheeler had a different view on the dual action trigger. This is only one data point for the Badger Patriot. It would be wonderful if other users can post side-by-side observation of other brand mix.
I report only my observations. No preference or statement about which is better. Don’t hit me. [:(] Feel free to disagree with my observations. Test and post your results.
So, from what you found, with the Iwata and the H&S, air goes from full off to full on with a trigger displacement of about 3/32 of an inch. That’s pretty sensitive. Do you find that this is of any real value when painting? Apparently, the Aztek has a stroke about twice as long.
I paint more less like you do. I start the air flow first by push down on the trigger before pull back to control the paint. I have never mastered the skill of a fine artist to paint variable line width as I go. I have not done any free hand camo either, always masking.
Other modelers like James T (JTRACING) or Waikong found air flow control useful. I would expect that control comes in handy if one does more free hand camo or mott.
When you compare an Iwata and a Badger side-by-side, you will really have to look hard to notice the range of air flow change in an 1/32 stroke of the Badger. The longer 1/10" stroke of the Iwata is much easier to notice the effect. I am not surprised that you found the Badger trigger acts like an on-off only switch.
I observation is on the difference only. Don’t read it any further.
I have posted several times before that there is difference in the nozzle and taper of the Iwata HP-CS vs. the Badger Patriot 105F (fine needle). The Iwata needle taper is twice longer that results in significant difference in the paint control action. I said that the Patriot is adequate for my level of modeling skill, but I prefer the Iwata style of paint control which provide a longer and more linear action. It is easier for me, have a better sense of accuracy and give more potential for future skill build up. I will strongly suggest that you try one of the Iwata and Harder & Steenbeck again. Does the air flow trigger action make a differeent to a highly skillful modeler? With your modeling skill so much higher than mine, your report will be much more helpful to the other modelers.
I won’t claim to be an expert, but I’ve messed around with a grex on a few occassions and have been sorely tempted to buy one.
The Grex is a double action - you pull back to start the air and continue pulling to get paint. Once the air is flowing, your control isin how far you pull back to release the needle and open the nozzle - thus varying the volume of paint being sprayed. If you want to adjust airflow, you’ll have to do that on your compressor.
They really are nice brushes. Just picking one up at a show I was able to, literally, write my name as if I was using a pen. The nozzle is also set up to allow you to touch the surface you are painting (or nearly so) and not get trapped air causing turbulence that disrupts the paint flow.
The one criticism I have heard (from a freind who owns one) is that they are a bit of a PITA to clean - particularly the version with the side-mount, ambidextrous paint bottle.
Where is the confusion??!! The Badger definition you just quoted describes PRECISELY that the Grex Airbrush does? You have one trigger. Pull it a little, you get air. Pull it a little more, you get paint. Same trigger, controls both. It is the same with your Iwata, the action is just different. I mean, on your Iwata, you CAN get just air, right? But you CAN"T get just paint? Same thing on the Grex.
In a single action brush, the only thing you control with the trigger is the air - you get air, you get paint, end of story.
You are right, however, that with some double actions, you can vary the amount of air. I can do it with my Badger 150 - there is enough ‘play’ in the trigger that I can get just a little air flow. But, to be honest, the best and easiest way to control airflow, in my opinion, is at the compressor with a pressure regulator…
What’s interesting to me is that since I had a cheapo airbrush compressor (the company is out of business) and I have no regulator, I’ve learned to use my airbrush’s trigger to control the airflow. I just assumed all dual action airbrush worked this way, and thus always thought the regulator was a bit of a luxury. It does allow you to set the Maximum pressure you want. I’ve been the lookout to upgrade to a better compressor and perhaps an airbrush.
While my Aztek have served me fine for almost 10 year - it’s been repaired for free under it’s lifetime warranty once and looks like it needs another one now. The main issue seems to be that I didn’t clean the brush well enough and paint may now be permanent stuck inside. I now longer can use the brush in full dual mode, as some paint spray out even when only air should. Unfortunately, I can’t open the thing up without voiding the warranty - so maybe an airbrush that I can strip completely will be better for someone like me who doesn’t clean his brush as well as he should.
What attracted me to the Grex Titanium is the pistol grip, seems to much less tiring than the traditonal trigger and perhaps easier control. It’s a tossup between the Grex or a Badger Renegade Spirit. For thet compressor, I’m thinking of going with a Silentaire scorpion I - has the pressure gauage, moisture trap, and the auto-shutoff. It’s also rated sound wise about the same as the Grex compressor, which I heard at the model show and seems nice and quiet to me.
I contacted Grex directly for clarification on the Tritium’s trigger works. First my email, I have bolded the section pertaining to the on/off trigger:
And now for their reply, again, I have bolded (and italicized) the pertinent sections:
So it seems we are all correct, as Raymond has clarified the Grex trigger is on/off only. And some older triggers did allow for some adjustment during the vertical travel. I guess I’ll have to let Raymond know that there are a bunch more exceptional airbrush artists to add to his short list.
Boyd, if you can control differing air flows with your 150, you have a delicate touch on the trigger, or perhaps your airbrush is older than mine or has a longer vertical travel. I can only get on or off and with a scant 1/16" travel, I don’t even attempt it.
I am also waiting for an answer from Ken at Badger for clarification from him on air flow control with Badger airbrushes, and will post when I have that information. I do know that they sell a “bakery” edition of the 200 for cake decorating, and it has the air valve removed so that the air is constantly on.
Interesting conversation with Raymond. Some good info there.
Don’t read too much into my comment about controlling the airflow. I don’t have great control over it, but as I depress the trigger I get to a ‘sweet spot’ when the air starts to flow. If I am really light with my touch, I can hover the trigger right there and let the air ‘seep’ out. But, it would be a stretch to say I have ‘control’ over it. It is useful for doing some light misting, but it does take a lot of effort to ‘hold’ the spot, so it is not anything I’d say is really effective for any significant sized project.
Sorry, I have to say that I am more confused than ever by some of the comments.
It was agreed that ALL airbrushes need both air flow and paint flow to work. Do we call all airbrush “dual action”?
On the Badger 200 series, the paint flow is on-off only. The push down trigger controls the air flow. Badger calls this a “single action” airbrush because, apparently, the on-off paint flow is a given and does not count as “an action”. What Badger does is consistent with most other manufacturers.
The Grex pull trigger series, the air flow is on-off only. The trigger controls the paint flow only. Bill and you insist that this is dual action. I don’t get it. [6]
The main question is whether a highly skilled modeler benefit from a traditional “dual action” airbrush where the trigger gives a range of control over both the air flow AND the paint flow. I hope that master modelers like Waikong or Don Wheeler will help us understand it better.
Bill, That’s fantastic information, you really went the extra mile to clear this issue up! Much appreciated. As for those of us who have learned to control the air pressure with the trigger being exceptional airbrush artists, speaking for myself, I only WISH! I think it took me over a year just to feel comforatble with using an airbrush and another not to be intimidated by it. After all these years, I still think it has a mind of its own sometimes.
You summed it up pretty well, Bill, but just let me add a quick point to help clear things up. Keilau, the ‘double’ of the double action airbrush is the ability to move the needle, thus being able to vary the amount of paint that is being sprayed, thereby adjusting the thickness of lines, etc.
By comparison in a single action brush, the needle’s position is fixed - it is set before painting starts, so the only action you are controlling with the trigger is to start or stop the air flow.
Yeah, I think you summed it up nicely, Bill. I CAN control, to a certain degree, the air flow coming out of my nozzle, however, doing that with any precision AND controlling the amount of paint is vistually impossible. To be honest, when I do feather the trigger to just get a little air, I typically just pull it back all the way to open the needle and let the paint flow at full volume - anything else is just too difficult (darn near impossible for me). I’d say Raymond is right - there probably are only a few people who can do both with a great deal of precision…
Just to try to get some expert opinion, I started this thread on the Airbrush.com forum. These people are real artists and make their living with an airbrush. Don’t be fooled by Airhead’s hokey writing style. He’s an old hand at airbrushing and knows his stuff. KathyL does beautiful work.
Thanks for posting that thread on the airbrush forum, hopefully more people will chime in and we can get a real consensus.
Personally, I think they are fooling themselves that they are controlling air flow with incremental movements of the trigger. Dagger strokes are created by adjusting the position of the airbrush from the surface, not by altering needle position or air flow. Close up for thin, farther back for thick. This is how single action airbrushes can do dagger strokes the same as a dual action airbrush.