Hella HMS Victory - Shrouds

The kit is the 1/100 scale Heller HMS Victory. The line included with the kit would be adequate for the average modeller but out of the question for the master modeller. I’m kind of in-between, leaning towards the more amatuer, due to limited but growing experience with rigging. Tying off rigging, siezing, and whatnot is not really an issue. Simplifying the rigging to something that looks good to the untrained eye and adequate to a more trained eye is what I’m going for.

Thanks for the diameter suggestions. I’ll look into the sizes and make my purchases…thanks again.

Arthritis is minimal for me right now. The nerve damage and back damage I got while in the military is primarily in my legs and lower back. Give me another 20 years and things will probably be different. For now, anti-inflammatories and pain killers do the trick.

The Jolly Roger and Captain Kidd kits are wonderful kits and are actually just re-named ships of other kits. The rigging is pretty simple. Now, the Heller Victory and Soleil Royal are on an entire different level. From a quality standpoint, IMHO, you can’t find better molds. Simply put, they are beautiful. But, the instructions are a nightmare and many people say to just throw them out because of their complexity. The Victory is a lot easier to work with than the Soleil Royal. But, on both kits, the rigging is the most complicated and detailed that you will find on any plastic kit.

There has also been much debate on the Soleil Royale and the fact that Heller just flat out got many of the ships details and architecture wrong. But, for me, I don’t really worry about such things. Both kits are a challenge and look stunning when complete. Just be prepared to spend a heck of a lot of time on them. I’m giving myself at least 1 year to work and finish the Victory, and that’s being liberal. It will probably take longer.

A couple of kits I do recommend that are not as complex as the Heller kits, but are a challenge in of themselves would be the Revell kits 1/96 constitution and 1/96 Cutty Sark. I am busy rigging the Cutty Sark and it looks incredible and is a blast to do. Just check Ebay and you’ll find them being auctioned all the time…

I’ll just make four points and then shut up. First - the problem with the rigging instructions for the Heller Soleil Royal and Victory is not that they’re so complex, but that the people responsible for writing them (especially the alleged “translations” into English) were incompetent. There’s no need whatever to turn the rigging of a ship model into such an incomprehensible mass of numbers and badly-drawn diagrams. And some of the mistakes in those instructions are downright mind-boggling. How anybody with any interest whatever in sailing ships could think that yards aren’t fastened to masts is beyond my comprehension. That such a person would attempt to tell somebody else how to rig a ship model - and charge money for the information - borders on criminality.

Second - the real ships represented by the two Lindberg kits actually had rigging that was, in most respects, just as complex as those represented by the big Heller kits. The Lindberg “Jolly Roger” is a reissue of the French eighteenth-century frigate La Flore, whose rigging was quite similar in most respects to that of the Victory. The Lindberg “Captain Kidd” is a reissue of the German two-decked warship Wappen von Hamburg, whose rigging looked quite a bit like that of the Soleil Royal. Most modelers vary the amount of rigging they install according to the scale of the model. Those two Lindberg kits are on a relatively small scale, hence most modelers install less rigging on them.

The instructions in the big Revell kits do a reasonably good, intelligent job of simplifying rigging while preserving the basic concepts of it. I don’t think much of Revell’s methods of handling shrouds, ratlines, deadeyes, and lanyards, but their rigging diagrams generally make sense. They don’t, for example, show how lower stays were secured around mastheads, and in general they make things less complicated than an experienced modeler would like them in an ideal world, but the people responsible for those diagrams clearly knew what they were doing. The people responsible for the Heller ones didn’t.

The truth of the matter is that every modeler simplifies rigging to some extent. What varies from model to model, and from modeler to modeler, is the degree of simplification. My little frigate Hancock has every piece of rope on it that I thought I could justify. But the sheaves in its blocks don’t move, the ends of its ratlines are knotted (rather than eye-spliced) to the shrouds, and some of the lines that ought to have three strands actually have two. The model with absolutely complete, absolutely accurate rigging has yet to be built.

In this respect, as in so many others, the plastic kit company that beat them all, in my personal opinion, was the Japanese firm Imai. The Imai 1/125 Cutty Sark, in my opinion, is the best representation of that ship yet to be made available in kit form - plastic, wood, or otherwise. And the rigging diagrams are skillfully conceived to present a simplification of the real ship’s rigging - not an arbitrary collection of threads. Unfortunately, Imai went out of business about twenty years ago. Some of its kits have resurfaced recently under the Academy and Aoshima labels, though - but unfortunately the prices are pretty staggering.

Third - let’s be careful with that word “amateur.” It doesn’t imply anything whatever about the skill, ability, or knowledge of the modeler; it just indicates that he/she doesn’t get paid for building models. Some of the best, and some of the worst, ship models I’ve ever seen have been built by professionals. (Think of those…things…that are sold in discount stores - the ones with spray-painted burlap “sails” and ludicrously oversized “cannon” sticking out of their hulls. The people who built them were professional ship modelers.) I’ve been building ship models for fifty years, and I’m an amateur - and have every intention of remaining one. I’ve done some restoration work on old models for money, but the last time I actually took somebody’s money for building a model was when I was in the sixth grade. I have no desire whatever to build models for money - or to build them to deadlines. I have to contend with enough deadlines in my real job.

Fourth - in confronting a big ship model project planning ahead is always a good idea, but it makes sense to be most concerned with the jobs that have to be tackled in the immediate future. As I’ve said several times already - and I know you’re sick of hearing it - the only way to compensate for those awful instructions in the Heller kits is to get hold of a book or two. Internet forums like this one are great, but there’s just no way anybody can learn how to rig a ship model by means of web posts. The books in question don’t have to be expensive. A used paperback copy of Anderson’s The Rigging of Ships in the Days of the Spritsail Topmast can, as we established in another thread some weeks back, be had for less than $10.00, and contains everything anybody needs to know to rig a model of the Soleil Royal. The Campbell plans of the Cutty Sark, which contain almost enough information to build the ship herself (on three sheets of paper), cost $15.00. The Longridge book on the Victory, unfortunately, is pretty expensive, but it can be obtained through Inter-Library Loan. How any hobbiest spends his money and time is his business - certainly not mine. But if you’re working on the Soleil Royal and cash is scarce (as it is for most of us - certainly for me), wouldn’t it make more sense to spend $10.00 on a copy of the Anderson book, rather than on a massive stock of rigging thread for a model you haven’t started yet?

I guarantee that the rigging of that ship, presented by an author who knows what he’s talking about, will start to make sense almost immediately. Instead of huge, incomprehensible diagrams, Dr. Anderson breaks the subject down into individual spars and lines. He describes, in clear, friendly English, what each rope does, how big it is, and how it leads - and he gives you an individual drawing of it to clear up any questions. He also includes a collection of photos of contemporary models, so you can see how everything fits together. Armed with that information, you can decide for yourself which lines are the most important, and which can reasonably be omitted from your first model and left for your tenth one.

Now, as promised, I’ll shut up. These are your models. It’s not for me or anybody else to tell you how to build them.

Straight forward and correct as always JTilley. But, from my perspective, when putting one of my builds up against you Hancock, you are in no way, an amatuer. My perspective, mind you. But that’s for another debate.

I actually got a hold of one of the books you mentioned. I must be more stupid than I even thought. Even that book (for the Soleil Royale), will take time to decipher.

Yes, both of the Lindberg kits can have very complicated rigging. But, as JTilley points out, with the right resources, you can complicate the rigging to your desire. Straight from the box though, as 95% of the modelling population builds their kits, the rigging is a lot easier to work with as it is and still makes a fine looking model.

I’ve got a long way to go before any heavy rigging on either of the Heller kits, true, and planning is critical if you’re going to use the instructions for rigging provided. I’ve already got several pages of notes and I am looking for the books in order to have a reference.

And last, then I too will shut up, I come from the world of “build it from the box”, so taking a kit beyond what is in the instructions, is still relatively new to me. So I still have that perspective in my head. A fine model can be built using the instructions, and a few pics of the actual ship (if available) and pics of other peoples builds will give you a great kit. Just have fun and determine what works for you. Post your work and finished builds on the forum for all to see. Nobody here will ever negatively criticize your work.

Just have fun with it and who cares what anyone else says…

Now, back to figuring out how to tie off this stay… :slight_smile:

Grymm…

When I was working at the Mariners’ Museum we got into a lengthy discussion about the terms “professional modeler” and “amateur modeler.” The subject came up when I was asked to draft a set of rules for the next of the once-every-five-years model competitions the museum sponsored in those days. A couple of competitors in the first competition suggested that professionals and amateurs should compete in different categories.

After considerable discussion and consultation with some experts, we decided against that approach. The competition was supposed to recognize quality models - in terms of research, accuracy, technique, etc. There is no direct relationship between those attributes and the amateur/professional status of the modeler.

The professional has some advantages over the amateur. The professional can (indeed probably has to) devote many hours per day to the model; that lets him/her “get in the groove,” which in some aspects of modeling can be highly desireable. The pro also probably finds it easier to acquire tools, reference books, materials, etc. (My workshop and library would be considerably better equipped if I could claim the money I spend on tools and books as business expenses on my tax return.)

On the other hand, the professional has to work according to a schedule, and has to be governed by a price. If he/she makes a mistake and has to tear something apart and start over, that costs money. For the same reason, the pro can’t afford to experiment as much with new techniques and materials. And the pro has to crank out models at a certain, considerable pace in order to make even a modest living.

One example may help. I spent something in the region of a thousand hours on my little model of the frigate Hancock, spread extremely inconsistently over a period of 6 1/2 years. If I’d been working on that model full-time, I might have been able to do it in six months (assuming I could have stuck with it for eight hours a day, five days a week - which I probably couldn’t have done). Shortly after I finished it, I happened to have it at a convention that was also attended by a friend who was in charge of the ship model brokerage at Mystic Seaport. He tried briefly to convince me to let him sell the model for me. He thought he could get, as he put it, “at least $15,000” for it. (Those were 1984 dollars.) That sounded tempting - till he went on to explain that his firm’s standard commission was 40 percent. That would have left me with $9,000 - before I paid income and Social Security (self-employment) taxes on it. If I could have cranked out two models like that per year, and sold each of them immediately, I might have made $15,000 or $16,000 per year - more than the MM was paying me, as a matter of fact (which is why Tilley went to ECU), but hardly a generous income. Take out of that the expenses of materials, tools, reference materials, etc., and you begin to see why so few professional modelers make really good scale models. Some do. (The names McNarry, Hahn, Napier, Ough, and Reed come to mind immediately.) But most find that, in order to make a living, they have to make compromises in terms of detail and quality. Rather than working up to a standard, they have to work down to a price.

The amateur, on the other hand, can build what he wants, when he wants to build it, to his own standard, to his own deadline. He can experiment to his heart’s content, redo anything that doesn’t satisfy him, and have fun. Most professional modelers I’ve met tell me they envy the amateurs.

I think this extract from the definition in the American Heritage Dictionary sums up the matter pretty well:

amateur n. 1. A person who engages in an art, a science, a study, or an athletic activity as a pastime rather than as a profession…(French, from Latin amator, lover, from amare, to love.)

Maybe we need some vocabulary words to distinguish between levels of quality in model building. But “professional” and “amateur” just don’t do the job.

I do want to correct something I typed in my last post, wherein I said that the truly completely rigged ship model hasn’t been built yet. I remembered one model that, I think, does in fact meet the definition: the model of the whaling bark Lagoda, in the Whaling Museum at New Bedford, Massachusetts. The model is on 1/2 scale. (That’s not 1/2" = 1’, but 1/2.) The model is about fifty feet long. It was built - and rigged - early in the twentieth century by people who had been involved in the construction and rigging of the real sailing whaleships, and it literally reproduces every part of the original. Those who want to emulate that project and build 50’-long models certainly have my best wishes. Everybody else needs to acknowledge that his/her models are simplified to some degree or other.

The rigging as presented by Heller makes my head spin, so much in fact I have seriousy considered rigging nothing but the lower masts and partial shrouds/ratlines with a few other details. I am wondering if anyone else has had the same thought or knows of anybody who has done this and what the end-product looks like. I feel limiting the rigging on model of this quality (sans Heller’s interpretation of “diagrams”) would not do justice to it, on the other hand I am somewhat of a novice modeller myself and I want to do the best job I can. I want it to be something I can be proud of for years. I have already taken some creative liberties with the stern galleries (railings are solid black), “bronze” color below waterline, and the M2 mixture is more of a seafoam green than on the actual Victory. I am pleased with these changes, though deviating in accuracy too much from the original is not my intended goal.

Make the model as you envision it. That’s what I always say. As for the rigging, I’ve known several people who never went past the lower masts, believing the model was stunning at that stage. And yes, the rigging instructions were truly written by satan. They are insane. JTilley mentioned a very good book that really makes it easier to do the rigging (yeah JTilley, I said that). I’m currently deciphering the kit included rigging instructions and finding the book. The bowsprit alone is the most insanely written rigging diagram I have ever seen. But, had it been written cleaner, I imagine we would have had a 100+ page set of instructions.

Just build, paint, and enjoy. That’s the thrill of modelling. Escape.

If the Heller rigging instructions had been written competently, they’d look about like the rigging instructions in the Revell kits. That is, they’d provide a clear, understandable guide to installing a somewhat simplified version of the real ship’s rigging - sensible, rational, within the capacity of any decent modeler, while providing a basis for the experienced enthusiast to elaborate on if he/she wanted to. The problem is not that the rigging of the Victory is inherently more complex than that of the Constitution. It isn’t. (As a matter of fact, in some ways the Constitution has more rigging than the Victory. The Constitution has four yards on each mast; the Victory - in the configuration kitted by Heller - only has three.) The problem is that the Heller people didn’t know what they were doing.

In fairness we probably should note one other factor that undoubtedly influenced the approach the Heller instruction “writers” took. The old Revell kits originated in the 1950s and 1960s, before the plastic kit industry got internationalized. The original issues of the Cutty Sark and Constitution kits were in English - period. Heller, from the beginning of its existence, felt obliged to gear its kits to an international market. I suspect that’s one big reason why the instructions in the Soleil Royal and Victory kits rely so heavily on diagrams and numbers: the writers wanted to keep the actual verbiage to a bare minimum, so the same instructions could be packed in the boxes going to France, Britain, Spain, Germany, Italy, the U.S., etc. Nice idea - but it just doesn’t work. Combine that approach with the designers’ fundamental ignorance of how sailing ships worked, and the result is a ripoff of the typical purchaser. (The Revell people may not have operated on quite the level of artisanship that the Heller ones did - but at least Revell understood that yards are supposed to be fastened to masts.)

I purchased an airbrush just for this particular model, and I am wondering if anyone has used anything other than a thinner specified for modelling. Would mineral spirits or lacquer thinner have the same effect? I am using Humbrol enamel. My biggest fear is ruining the paint or the airbrush. As I mentioned earlier, I painted the railings on the stern galleries solid black (looks like a fat hornet from behind). I do not have a whole lot of experience in painting the smaller details like the figurehead or foc’sle or ornamentation on the stern. Does anyone have any useful hints or tips on how to make these finer details look respectable?

You know, I’ve tossed around and tried airbrush versus handbrushing, and to me at least, nothing beats handpainting. It looks so much more scale than airbrushing, adding brush texture to the hull. Now, I’ve used airbrushes for undercoats, say, for the black under the deck tan for grain effects, as well as for masts. But I found that nothing looks better than a brush painted kit. I tend to be a little more proud of my work also.

But, to tell you the truth, I’ve never used anything except water as a thinner. It just works well for me since I only use acrylics.

As for the finer details, I use wash and drybrush techniques. I can get wonderful shadows, aged paint effects, and worn wood effects…

Hope that helps…

Hey, back on the shroud/ratline subject…I found this type of “liquid plastic” that dries to a flat black tone. I tried it out and was quite pleased with it. Check your local hardware store. I think it’s in either the plumbing, glue, or electrical section. Just a dab to cover where the ratline crosses the shroud and it holds quite well, though I haven’t tried it over an entire set of shrouds, so I don’t know how the whole finished product would hold together. When it dries, it’s very hard to notice, except for the fact that you cannot see any knots where there normally would be, and that would drive purists crazy…But viewing the ship as a display on a shelf or something like that, it would look very pleasing to the eye.

Grymm

If I built the Victory using only the parts supplied from Heller and minimized the rigging, how terrible would the ship look? I think it would still be a rather impressive work of art (or maintaining one’s sanity). Is it possible to find “aftermarket” parts for the ORIGINAL gorgeous statue of a figurehead on the Victory circa 1765?

To begin with, we should emphasize in any discussion like this that it’s your model, and how you build it is entirely up to you. Nobody (I hope) is going to pronounce that anything you do to it is “wrong.”

If you look through the various Forum threads dealing with this kit (and there are quite a few of them), you’ll see that there’s been a lot of criticism (much of it from me) of many of the kit’s parts. In most cases, though, the problem is not how they look, but that the way they’ve been designed isn’t practical.

Some of that situation is not Heller’s fault. Styrene plastic is a wonderful material, but there are some purposes for which it just doesn’t work well. Eyebolts made out of styrene break when threads are tied to them and pulled taut. Hammock netting stanchions made out of styrene break when they’re accidentally bumped - which they almost certainly will be when the model is being rigged. And the rigging blocks and deadeyes in the kit are just about unusable. A real block or a deadeye has a groove around it and a hole (or several holes) through it. A two-piece rigid mold cannot produce a part with a groove around it and a hole through it. As I recall, the rigging blocks in the big Heller kits have little bumps molded on their edges; the modeler is told to tie a piece of thread around the block in such a way that the thread sort of zigzags around the little bumps. That isn’t just unrealistic; it’s utterly impracticable. The deadeyes aren’t quite as bad; they don’t have grooves around them, but they do have little “steps” molded in them that, at least in the case of the bigger sizes, probably could be made to hold the lines in position (though I’m not so confident about the smaller sizes).

That’s why so many serious modelers replace the eyebolts, blocks, and deadeyes with aftermarket or scratchbuilt parts - not because the replacement parts look so much better, but because they work so much better. I speak from experience: rigging a cast metal block from Bluejacket (www.bluejacketinc.com) is a whole lot easier than wrestling with those Heller abominations. And it takes less than a minute to make an eyebolt from brass or copper wire - an eyebolt that will withstand any yank that’s administered to the rope attached to it.

I am unaware of any aftermarket parts designed specifically for the Heller Victory - or any other plastic sailing ship kit. In any case, changing the figurehead would only be one step toward making the Heller kit represent the ship’s 1765 configuration. In the first forty years of her life she went through several massive refits that changed her appearance quite substantially. To reproduce her 1765 configuration you’d have to rebuild the stern galleries, the entry ports, and some of the bulwarks in addition to the bow; the position of the mainmast would have to be altered, the “copper sheathing” would have to be removed from the hull bottom, and the armament would have to be changed. The kit does a pretty good job of showing what the Victory looked like in 1805 (though there’s room for argument about that). My suggestion would be to let well enough alone - unless you’re prepared for a project that would be almost as complex and time-consuming as starting from scratch.

All the foregoing discussion of “how bad (or good) the model would be if built from the box” makes me wonder about something. Over the years I’ve seen quite a few Constitutions and Cutty Sarks built more-or-less straight from the boxes of the 1/96-scale Revell kits. The Revell designers, as we’ve discussed above, knew what they were doing; they figured out how to simplify some of the tricky parts in a practical way that enabled a competent modeler to obtain a nice-looking, impressive result - whether or not he really knew what he was doing. A significant investment in aftermarket parts, and the acquisition of some reference materials beyond those in the box, certainly would make a Revell Cutty Sark or Constitution into a better-detailed and more accurate model, but they aren’t necessary to produce a model that most observers would find really impressive and satisfactory.

On the other hand, I’ve never seen a completed Heller Soleil Royal or Victory that hadn’t had a great deal of extra attention lavished on it. We’ve had discussions of several that are in progress here in this Forum; most of the builders are adding lots of aftermarket parts, and so far as I know none of them is finished. Has anybody out there ever built a Heller Soleil Royal or Victory without replacing any of the kit parts - and using at least one book or set of plans to augment those gawdawful “instructions”? Has anybody even seen a finished Heller Soleil Royal or Victory with its yards dangling unattached to the masts? Or fitted successfully with hammock nettings made on that ridiculous “loom”? Or with deadeyes, lanyards, shrouds, and ratlines successfully “rigged” on those silly, complicated jigs? Or with the rigging lines actually zigzagging around the little bumps on the blocks? Quite apart from the question of why anybody would try to build those kits that way, I have my doubts as to whether it could be done.

It seems this topic will run and run.

The Heller kit is no doubt one of the most complex plastic kits of its type, but with the potential for superb results. In the end tho’ modellers should only build to their own satisfaction and enjoyment.

How far the tips and recommendations found in forums like this are taken on board is entirely up to the individual. The rub is, as Mr Tilley has touched on in an earlier post, that faced with this information an element of disillusionment can creep in which can spoil one’s pleasure in the build, perhaps a case for ignorance is bliss for newcomers to the art.

One of the problems doing the rigging ala Heller is that they don’t really explain what many of the lines (particularly running rigging) are for. It can therefore be difficult to understand the sense of it without some knowledge of model ship rigging.

That is why people such as Mr Tilley and myself advocate books such as those by C.N. Longridge which are invaluable at whatever level of completion one is prepared to undertake.

I certainly agree with Mr Tilley that the Revell Cutty Sark and Constitution are large scale ship models that do have clear explanations and can be built with a high personal satisfaction level, without the torture presented by Heller instructions.

Had I not built these two model first, my builds of the Victory and Soleil Royal would have been a much less pleasant experience.

So George, you have built all 4 kits then? Could you post some pics for us? I am especially in need of pics of a completed Soleil Royal. Perhaps I could get you to take a series of pics for me? I would be very grateful.

Hello all,

I don’t know if a link to the following forum has been posted before:

http://www.chumster.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83&mforum=bobbie

These are some pictures of an impressive Soleil Royale build.

The forum and website are dedicated to builds of the Heller Victory, and there are also threads for other sailing ship models. Those gents across the pond do some great work.

Jose Gonzales

Ah Grymm, you’ve caught me out. [:I] I ‘moonlight’ on this forum but I think you have seen examples of my work on my home forum of which you are also a member, and I believe I have had discourse regarding the ‘Constitution’ with Jose at different times. I think the question you ask has been answered in the previous post.

Well, what I’m looking for is someone who has built the kit and can take a series of pictures of it for me, pretty much of just the rigging. Say, like several pics of each mast with some closeups. That way I can get a better feel for how this monstrosity is rigged up…

I just can’t find any pics like that on the web…

As JTilley said, starting from scratch to build the Victory in her 1765 configuration would be the only way to go except, through some late night parousing I found that Airfix has a 1/180 Victory model as built in 1765. Has anyone other than me even seen this kit?

Sorry I can’t help you with that my Soleil Royal has been sold, the best I can direct you to is the book by R.C. Anderson The Rigging of Ships in the days of the Spritsail Topmast 1600 - 1720. It’s the reference work I used to rig my Soleil.

Hi CC where’s the pics then?

The only Airfix 1:180 model I know of is the1805 configuration (including Entry port) that has been around for a long time.

I think we’d all be interested in a 1765 configured model with open galleries etc; do keep us posted.