Thanks for that Mark - those two photographs make for a very telling comparison. Must admit, it had never even occurred to me that gun carriages would be moulded into the deck - I’d always assumed that they were a seperate part!!
Actually they are moulded to the deck on the quarterdeck of the Constitution too, IIRC. But that’s not a bad thing. And lousy models have the gun barrels plug into holes on the side, so at least these have open ports.
John is right about the rigging being a challenge, it would be. But that’s true of the La Flore too. There’s about 31 La Flore/ JR’s on eBay ranging from $ 8 to $ 28. I’m frankly tempted to pick one up, except I can’t lose focus on the current ship I’m working on.
In a similar way, in an earlier generation, I read my way through the Hornblower series. Lacking an available British frigate, I built the Revell Constitution (here we’re talking about the little one) gave her a freehand yellow band right out of the Testors bottle, and I was one happy sailor. I named her HMS Caligula.
One of the simpler models to rig would be Revell’s Golden Hind, Sir Francis Drake’s ship. It’s also one of the very best plastic ship model kits ever sold. They come up on eBay pretty often, just keep your eyes open, don’t settle for any other maker, and be prepared to spend $ 30 - $ 50. But building the hull up is fun, and the figures are a treat, and there’s lots of decorative painting to do.
I would recommend from these, as is in production at the moment:
Revell:
Frigate “Dom Fernando II e Glória” 1:200;
Whaling ship “Charles W. Morgan” 1:110;
HMAV “Bounty” 1:110.
Revell - Monogram:
USS Bonhomme Richard 1:132.
Airfix:
Bark “Endeavour” 1:120.
Lindberg:
Jolly Roger Pirate Ship (in real this is french La Flore) 1:130.
I have just ordered the Zvezda 1/200 French Frigate “Acheron”.
At 440 mm long it should give me plenty of room to work, it is apparently moulded from new tooling, and as a French frigate, it may easily be captured, given a Nelson chequer, & brought into Royal Navy service!!
Newbie question - is there much available in the way of detailing for models such as these - canon barrels, pulley blocks, hatch covers etc? A few years back I built HMS Hood with etched brass detailing - it made a huge difference over the moulded plastic.
Thanks again,
Bernie
Zvezda’s “Acheron” is the same model as Revell’s “Dom Fernando II e Glória” 1:200 and this is not new tooling, becouse original model was isued by Occidental as “Dom Fernando II e Gloria” 1:200, Zvezda and Revell simply reissues this model.
But that doesn’t matter, choice is good.
The Archeron is a fictional ship, whereas the Dom Fernando II e Gloria is a real ship that still exists in Portugal. Does anyone know how close the model represents the real ship?
As for the Revell 1/196 Constitution, the major drawbacks for me are the molded-on carronade slides and the molded-on gunport lids. It is an otherwise excellent kit.
I must observe that the response this thread has generated illustrates that there is interest in plastic sailing ship models. I wish the manufacturers would sit up and take notice!
Bill Morrison
Not entirely acurate. French “Archeron” - of course, fiction. There was HMS Acheron (English ship), 8 gun bomb vessel, purchased in 1803 and captured and burnt by the Frech ships Hortense and Incorruptible.
By the words “good choice” i mean good model for beginner. Zvezda names this kit as French Archeron, in reality this is Portugal Dom Fernando II e Gloria, as this kit is named by Revell.
At first look model represents the real Dom Fernando pretty well, but i have’nt compare this model hull parts with Dom Fernando plans.
OH MY!!! Is there anything available for detailing? Anything, and everything is available in nearly any scale you want! [:D] Here are a couple of the most popular places to try looking at.
http://www.modelexpo-online.com/
There are many others too. I am sure others here can give a more comprehensive list!
I can endorse the two sources tucchase mentioned - but with one large caveat. To my knowledge there are no aftermarket parts specifically designed for plastic sailing ship kits.
Aircraft, armor, and modern warship modelers have the luxury of a vast range of cast metal, cast resin, turned brass, and photo-etched metal sets specifically designed for popular plastic kits: a dozen sets for a 1/48 P-51D, lord knows how many options for a 1/35 Sherman tank, two or three for a 1/350 *Iowa-*class battleship, etc., etc., etc. Nobody makes such things for plastic sailing ships. I once had an e-mail exchange with a manufacturer of aftermarket parts for warships, and gave him a list of sailing ship components that I thought would translate well into photo-etched metal. He very courteously gave me a list of reasons why he’d decided not to expand in that direction.
There is, however - as tucchase noted - a vast range of fittings and other components out there designed primarily for scratchbuilders and those working from wood kits. I’m a big fan of the deadeyes and blocks in the Bluejacket range; they’re cast in britannia metal, and they work just as well for plastic kits as for wood ones.
Model Expo sells parts that are included in its own Model Shipways range (generally very good kits), and hundreds that are made by the HECEPOB manufacturers. (HECEPOB = Hideously Expensive Continental European Plank-On-Bulkhead. The HECEPOB manufacturers include such firms as Mamoli, Artisania Latina, Corel, Mantua, and Occre. There are exceptions, but the vast majority of their kits have little to do with the hobby of scale ship modeling. In the unlikely event that anybody’s interested, a Forum search on the word “HECEPOB” will produce quite a few enthusiastic rants on the subject - from me and from others.) Some of the fittings those companies produce are ok; others are awful. (“Stern lanterns” with pink-tinted plastic in them; “carved decorations” that are grossly out of proportion, etc.)
Gun barrels can be particularly frustrating. In the world of modern warship kits you can buy beautiful turned brass barrels specifically - and accurately - designed for many, if not most, major capital ship classess in the two most popular scales: 1/350 and 1/700. If you’re into sailing ships you may luck out and find barrels that will work for your model - or you may not. Bluejacket, for instance, offers nine sizes of “old style” gun barrels that would be appropriate for ships of the very late seventeenth, eighteenth, and very early nineteenth centuries. That may sound like quite a few, but a quick look establishes that only the three or four smallest ones would work for any plastic sailing ship kit on the market - and none of them would work on the small-scale kits, like the Revell 1/192 Constitution or the old Lindberg La Flore, that have been discussed earlier in this thread. The HECEPOB manufacturers’ guns tend to have highly dubious proportions - and, again, to be pretty big for most plastic kits.
The good news on that particular front is that gun barrels happen to be one subject that the plastic kit manufacturers have represented pretty well over the years. The large-scale kits (the Revell 1/96 Constitution, the Heller 1/100 Victory, etc.) have barrels molded in halves, which present a problem in that the joints between them need to be dealt with (and when you’re talking about fifty or a hundred gun barrels, that does amount to something). But the guns in most smaller scale plastic sailing ship kits (there are, of course, some exceptions) are generally at least as good as anything the wood kit manufacturers can offer.
Ah, the Thebaud is the one I remember.
One thing I’ve done over the years is to have bought every incomplete or inexpensive Model Shipways 5/16 scale USS Essex, as well as the small scale Aeropiccola SuperMEC series of POB ships that I could get my hands on. Their blocks and fittings are very nice when fitted on small-scale plastic ships. I have also searched for their sets of fittings at yard sales, flea markets, eBay, etc. I have had to borrow a page from the architect of the modern Soviet/Russian Navy (Admiral Gorschkov), “Better is the enemy of good enough!” The blocks might not be exactly to scale, but they are much better than nothing!
Bill Morrison
Bill- it’s accurate within the usual limitations of the small-scale plastic sailing ship. The deck arrangement is more or less bang-on for the D. Fernando at launch date, which is the condition to which she was restored in the 90s. I could never be bothered to take lines off a plastic model (it would be a hug undertakign for a dunderhead like me!), but the general hull form looks very plausible for her type.
A few small scratchbuilt details would improve it immeasurably:
The spardeck (fully closed-over on this ‘double-banker’) carries long guns, which should of course be carronades. I am not yet sure how they would have been mounted, but in this scale it hardly matters!
Besides the poorly rendered hatch gratings, which I remain to be convinced wouldn’t have been glazed over anyway, the distintive ‘pagoda’ style cast iron awnings over the companionways for example are an essential ‘fix’ in my opinion.
earlier, more detailed discussion with links to pictures here: /forums/t/122460.aspx?PageIndex=1
good kit!
Will
Will,
Thanks! After lobbying the manufacturers for years to produce more sailing ship kits, I had better buy this one!
Bill
I’ve lost track of the various Forum discussions we’ve had about this Zvezda/Revell kit - and I haven’t seen it in the flesh. But it sticks in my primitive memory that it is in fact a reissue of a kit from some Eastern European manufacturer (Occidental, maybe?) that’s been around for quite a few years. Maybe I’m mistaken about that. Does anybody else have such a recollection?
Having originally started this thread, I have read with interest all of the contributions to it - & the links to earlier, related threads. I have learned (to my astonishment & delight!) that there is a restored Leeda class frigate about three hours drive away - so my camera & I will definitely be heading up to Hartlepool one weekend!
My kit of “Acheron” arrived this morning - & a quick first look is quite promising - minimal flash, accurately fitting parts - my only gripe is that there are no parts supplied for furled sails, as I have no intention of building her with the full set supplied. I have no experience of modern kits, so cannot compare the crispness of the mouldings.
I intend to build her as a fictional French frigate which was captured & brought into the RN - there were many examples of such & it will allow me to paint her in the full “Nelson Checker” that looks so good on such vessels. I also intend to detail her, provided that I can find the bits required!
Thanks to all for your help, it has been most encouraging - and particularly to the Gentleman (I will spare his blushes) who offered to post me over a kit which is only available in the USA as his contribution to my first “Age of Sail” kit.
When I get the opportunity, I will post images of how the (slow) constuction is proceeding.
Time to Splice the Mainbrace!!
Bernie [t$t]
Mr. Tilley, i wrote some messages before, that both “new” kits - Zvezda’s Archeron and Revell’s Dom Fernando II e Gloria are the same kit, originally isued many years before by Occidental as Dom Fernando II e Gloria. Revell repacked this model in real name, and Zvezda in fictional “Archeron” name, known from movie “Master and Commander” to attract more buyers, linke Lindberg with theyr various “pirate” ships, while ship named “xx pirate ships” is more attractive to US buyer than real name i.e. Wappen von Hamburg, La Flore etc.
P.S. Occidental was Portugal company, so not from “East Europe”. Portugal is in West Europe :-).
So my memory, for once, was right! Thanks, Wojszwillo. (On the other hand, I was mistaken about the location of Occidental. Somewhere I’d picked up the notion that the company was located in either the former Soviet Union or East Germany.)
It seems the only genuinely new sailing ship kits (i.e., the only ones originating in the last ten years or so) among those we’ve been discussing are the Zvezda cog and the Emhar Gokstad Ship. (The Revell one - a fine kit - dates from the mid-1970s.) Can anybody out there think of any others?
I wish I could see some convincing evidence to the contrary, but I’m afraid that as far as the manufacturers are concerned the plastic sailing ship kit is just about extinct. With the two exceptions already noted, virtually every plastic sailing ship kit on the market is at least twenty years old - and some have been around for upwards of fifty years.
John,
Don’t forget about Revell’s Batavia released around the late 1990’s. However, it is currently out of production.
I have attached my latest letter to a manufacturer in the hopes that one will listen:
Ernie Petit, President
Hawk/Lindberg Model
4520 20th Ave SW
Cedar Rapids, IA 52404
September 24, 2010
Dear Mr. Petit,
I wrote to you back on January 2, 2009 concerning my recommendation that Lindberg start a new line of sailing ship model kits. My recommendation was based on the general quality of those currently on the market as so-called pirate ships; ships that in fact represent historic ships in spite of your current marketing. I am asking you to reconsider your rejection of this request in light of the failure of your 1/72 scale Japanese submarine kits. Lindberg has a flair for sailing ships, ships that you do quite well. Other sailing ship modelers agree, as evidenced by their comments on the Fine Scale Modeling website. This recommendation could possibly increase your sales and profits, and establish Lindberg as a leader in sailing ship modeling.
You currently market four kits as so-called pirate ships, including the Sir Harry Morgan Pirate Ship, the Captain Kidd Pirate Ship, the Jolly Roger Pirate Ship, and the Blackbeard Pirate Ship. None depict the actual ships used by these historic pirates; they actually represent historic national ships. For example, the kit marketed as “Harry Morgan” is actually the French ship Le Saint Louis; Captain Kidd is actually the German ship Wappen von Hamburg, the Jolly Roger is the French Frigate La Flore, and the Blackbeard ship is really the English Sovereign of the Seas. Lindberg originally marketed these exquisite ship model kits under their historic names; they should do so again.
Your goal should be to attract serious ship modelers as well as children. Serious modelers know what these ships are; they are turned off by the childish marketing. These ships would be well-received if marketed under their historic names. They are well molded and reasonably well-detailed. Certain improvements might be made, such as replacing the sails molded with hard plastic with either vacuformed sails or with cloth, and including full gundecks. Serious modelers would delight in these changes, thereby improving profits.
Modelers like me regret the deplorable state of sailing ship plastic modeling in general. No new sailing ship has been released in many years; the industry has inundated the hobbyist with nothing but re-releases of old products. This practice ignores the successes experienced by those manufacturers who have raised the standards in aircraft, armor, and modern ship modeling since the mid-1980’s. One has only to look at the huge successes of such companies as Dragon and Trumpeter, as well as the renewed successes of older companies such as Tamiya and Hasegawa to see that modelers crave new kits and that plastic modeling is thriving as an industry. In other words, we hobbyists are there to support those companies that act boldly and offer new and innovative products.
I would therefore like to see Lindberg take the lead in manufacturing a new line of plastic sailing ships, preferably in specific series and uniform scales. For example, you could market ships to a standard scale in a French Revolutionary/Napoleonic Wars Series, an Anglo-Dutch Wars Series, American Revolution Series, etc. I would recommend a scale of either 1/144 or 1/150, with certain ships also manufactured in 1/100 scale. The idea of releasing ships in specific series would encourage modelers who understand that more ships are being planned that would fit with his/her collection. Simply look to the successful new companies who are doing precisely that! Also look to the successes of the very expensive wooded ship kit industry to show that there are many sailing ship enthusiasts starving for new products to support your efforts. We sailing ship enthusiasts would flock to Lindberg in droves, especially considering just how starved we are for new products! And, just think of the marketing possibilities of an American company taking the lead! You would gain countless followers!
I would recommend that you start by considering the following ships as being of immense historical interest:
a. HMS AGAMEMNON (Admiral Nelson’s favorite ship)
b. HMS BELLEROPHON (The ship to which Napoleon surrendered)
c. HMS VANGUARD (Nelson’s flagship at the Battle of the Nile)
d. HMS DIANA (Historic British Frigate)
e. HMS SHANNON (Historic British Frigate, defeated the USS CHESAPEAKE in 1813)
f. SANTISSIMA TRINADAD (Largest warship of its era)
g. L’OCEAN (Brueys’ Flagship at the Battle of the Nile)
h. BUCENTAURE (Villenueve’s flagship at Trafalgar)
i. De ZEVEN PROVENCIEN (De Ruyter’s flagship in the Anglo-Dutch Wars. A replica of this ship is currently being built in The Netherlands.)
There are many more examples of such ships; these represent a possible starting point.
Thank you for your consideration. Please understand that we hobbyists need new products manufactured to today’s higher standards. Please feel free to contact me should you have any questions about these recommendations. My email address is bmorri6409@sbcglobal.net
Sincerely,
William H. Morrison
Zvezda’s Kog is the same kit as Revell Kog. It seems, that Kog should be Zvezda’s mouldings. Revell’s Kog only has better decals.
But Zvezda’s HMAV Bounty is reboxed Airfix’s HMAV Bouty, Zvezda’s Cutty Sark is reboxed Airfix’s Cutty Sark, Zvezda’s Pourque Pas? is reboxed Heller’s Pourque Pas?, Zvezda’s Santa Maria is reboxed Heller’s Santa Maria, Zvezda’s HMS Victory is reboxed Airfix’s HMS Victory etc.
Dear Bill : You should get a standing ovation for your letter requesting the introduction of newer plastic model sailing ship kits. However, my pessimistic attitude is that it will be a cold day in hell before any new sailing ship kits are issued to the modeling public. It’s all a matter of the botton dollar. To prepare a plastic kit requies the making of new dies and all the procedures of new kit releases. The manufacturers are loath to make that commentment without being assured of a profitable return.
Rather than expect a new sailing ship kit release, scratch build your model as I did with the BOUNTY. I sent away for the plans from Harold H. Hahn, who also wrote his book,“Ships of the American Revolution.” His book instructs the modeler the steps it takes to build his models. Unfortunately, this book is out of print and can only be found in used book stores specializing in marine subjects.
Scratch building requires many hours of a hands-on experience, but the results, in my opinion, are well worth the effort.
Montani semper liberi ! Happy modeling to all and every one of you.
Crackers [8-|]