My insider information sources told me that the YF-23 was superior to the YF-22 in in just about all the performance catagories. In addition, all the service pilots involved in the flyoff preferred the YF-23. Unfortunately ,Northrop does not have the political pull that Lockheed has with the politicians. Also, Northrop was already producing the B-2 and it would be highlly unlikely that the government would award two major contracts to the same company.
With 37 years of experience in the defense business I can assure you that politics dectate contract awards not quality or performance. I can give a dozen personal experiences of that occurance during my career.
ares, I have to disagree with you.
Yes, you are correct that th F-15 has never lost an air combat engagement. But does that mean that we should sit back on our laurels and let the world pass us by in aircraft technology? Even in 5 to 10 years, I think we’d get a very rude awakening in air-to-air engagement results if we just sat around thinking the F-15 was “good enough.”
Secondly, your statement: “the F-22 doesn’t even really need all this stealth.” What!?! Wake up and smell the coffee, stealth is survival! Any pilot who thinks his bacon is worth bringing back home in one piece will tell you he’d rather sneak up on his foe undetected, rather than being painted by enemy SAMs 100 miles out.
Lastly, I have a hard time beleiving that the Air Force would gloss-coat operational aircraft to make them “look pretty.” These things aren’t landing at your local college campus for recruiting drives. It looks to me like the shiny surface in your photos may be a factory-fresh finish that hasn’t received a full paintjob yet…I have seen similar pictures of jets just taking off from the Marietta, Georgia plant. Looks like the dark gray splotches have been added as a background for applying the national insignia and tailcode, at least. Or, this shiny surface may be whats needed for the radar absorbant material (RAM) this bird uses. In any case, I highly doubt the finish is purely cosmetic.
but you ignored the last sentence. I never intended to mean it was a waste of any sort. its good for the pilots, and it may or may not be nescessary. better to have and not need than need and not have.
but as of right now; we are not likely to need it.(not to say we shouldnt have it)
I’ll say we shouldnt have it. I work in a section that has me working with all branches of the Military and have the opportunity to “debate” the better and worse parts of each service (all done in good humor, well mostly) and the need for this aircraft has been hotly debated between myself and one of my fellow airforce coworkers for so time. Many of these guys are, In my opinion, very closed minded and balk violently when ever they are told they dont need, or should’nt have something. Im not saying that this is not a remarkable aircraft because it its… and Im not going to say we’re wasting money in researching and developing such an aircraft because heaven forbid we allow the competition to surpass us. But as of right now I firmly believe that we have the best military in the world bar none. Thats not to say that there is not a nation, Army, Airforce, or Navy in the world that we couldnt learn from. Just that on a whole, theres nothing else that comes close. Are there aircraft in the world that can out perform the F-15? F-16? Absolutely. But does that justify spending BILLIONS of dollars replacing the Air Forces mainstream combat aircraft with F-22’s? I dont think so. Research it, Develop it… maybe even produce enough to form a fighter wing… then save the money you would use creating several fighter wings and use it to keep airmen in uniform rather than force reductions… Now being in the Army the counter reply to most of my arguments from my airman counterpart was that I was a Soldier and just didnt understand. Well, I said the same thing about the Commanche, and the new Howitzer that were both cancelled for the Army. Great peices of machinery that would have been nice to have. But why spend the money when we already have equipment that already satisfactorily completes the mission when we could use that money to keep soldiers in uniform? If we had money to throw away, great go ahead… but when the Army has problems keeping soldiers and the Airforce is kicking people out because they are overstrength… why not use the money where it can be of more value?. People are our military’s greatest strenght.
Dont forget that while other countries may be operating aircraft that can out perform ours… most of these countries are allies and the USAF has the ability to render most airforces in the world useless in less than 48hrs. 90% off fixed wing aircraft still require a runway which makes a nice/easy target.
Recently (last year I think) the USAF and IAF (indian) had a joint exercise which pitted the F-15C against the Indian SU-27s. The F-15s lost 7 out of 10 engagements. This was reported to congress. However, they left out the part that no F-15 had lost a “war” air-to-air engagement. They also omitted the fact that the SU-27s had soviet ground radar and the F-15s had no AWACS support. Whether this was left out for political reasons to bolster Raptor support, nobody will know. However the F-15s lost regardless of the conditions. Most of the potential US enemies use former soviet or improved soviet radar and equipment so in my opinion this exercise might have woken some people up.
When has an F-15C been pitted against a true enemy in a war? Gulf War? The airforce destroyed most of the IRAQ airforce while they were on the ground and the rest fled.
Bosnia? The recent conflicts? Now don’t get me wrong I’m not knocking the F-15 at all but just like the F-14 its been around along time and has it ever really been tested?
If I may make an observation everybody might be looking at this from the wrong angle. Everybody is questioning the “stealth” factor in an air-to-air role, but why has the F-22 been conduction JDAM tests at supersonic speeds? The F-15C has never dropped precision munitions. This reminds us how old the F-117 is, and one of them was shot down by an enermy.
Maybe the airforce is trying to consolidate like the navy is. Soon the only fighter in the navy will be hornets. The C,D, E and F models have similiar parts and cost less to maintain. The prowler is due to be replaced with the G model.
Now whether to F-22 can go head to head in a good old fashion dogfight with a EuroFighter and win, I don’t know. The EF can pull 9Gs sustained.
Whether the F-22 is worth the price, only time will tell. Anyone know what the maintenance cost will be? Maybe that cost should be compared to the cost of maintaining F-15s now and in 10yrs time.
Lastly when is Hasegawa releasing a 1/48 F-22 or Tamiya releasing a 1/32!
If I left something out regarding the F-15vsSU-27 story I do apologise or if any of my comments regarding that are incorrect, I apologise. Feel free to educate me[:D]