I just bought CA’s Bf-109C/D kit (the Luftwaffe version) Right away I notice that there was only instruction for the D version, but according to William Green’s tome, Bf-109C has the larger radiator and two-blade propeller (as supplied in the kit), while the D has slimmer radiator and three-blade propeller (none included). Even more curious are paintings and photos in Classic Publication’s Luftwaffe Colours Nachtjager Vol. 1 that all paintings and photos of planes identified as D version have the same two-propellers and deep radiators. My MSAP decal sheet for German Single Seat Night Fighters identifies it as C. Can anyone shed some light on this?
Since the kit’s been out for a while, there might already been discussions regarding this, so please bear with me for asking the question again.
According to my reference sources the C and the D radiator look the same. It appears somewhere in the late C production the fixed wooden two blade prop was replaced by a two blade variable pitch propeller that appears on the D model. I do not have any pictures of a D series with a three blade propeller. The other difference is the exaust stubs. on the A through C series the are flush. The D model has short ejector stubs. The first model with the three blade varible prop was the E-1. I did notice in my kit also the lack of decals for the C series. All of the parts are ther to build a C model but no decals? You could email Classic Airframes and ask them they respond to all email inqueries very quickly. So the resin nose with the flush stubs is for the C and so is the wooden propeller blade. I guess you are on your own as far as decals go. The picture I have of the nightfighter with the unit markings of N 8 is identified in my book as a Bf 109 C 2 of 10 {N}/JG26 based at Jever autumn 1939. If you want I can scan it and sent it to you.
Thanks for the reply. What book are you using? According to William Green’s “The Warplanes of the Third Reich”, pg. 535, referring to 109D:
“The DB600Aa engine drove an electrically-operated VDM controllable-pitch three-bladed metal airscrew… The deep radiator bath incorporated beneath the nose of earlier models gave place to a small oil cooler forming a part of the lower segment of the engine cowling” Photos on pgs. 535 and 536 show D models with three blade props and shrouded air intakes (also not included in the kit).
I have a feeling that the kit is in fact a C model only, but for whatever reason they named it a combo C/D, and gave us instruction that referred to D model only [%-)].
The D model never had a DB engine in it. The E series (with the exception of a couple of prototypes, like V13 and V14) and onwards were the only ones to have a Daimler Benz engine. All early production models B, C and D (some of the prototypes, the V series, that were sent to Spain for combat testing were sometimes referred to as A models) were all equipped with Jumo engines. They all have that same, similar look with big radiator mouth under the nose.
The early B models (sometimes referred to as B-1) were equipped with the fixed, wooden Schwartz propeller. Later B models (sometimes referred to as B-2) were equipped with the variable pitch, 2 bladed propeller (as well as the C and D models of the 109). The 3 bladed, variable pitch propeller was introduced with the E series (and some prototypes that were equipped with DB engines).
The biggest major difference with the C model was that it was equipped with an improved, fuel injected Jumo engine. Because the new engine wasn’t available in quantity, the later D model reverted back to the same Jumo carbureted engine that equipped the B models.
The early production B series had no exhaust stubs, instead there were just oval looking holes for the exhaust to vent out the sides of the cowling. Starting with the C model onwards, they all had short, stubby exhaust pipes that angled slightly back.
I did a lot of research, and purchased a lot of reference material on the Bf109 before building my Classic Airframes Bf109D, so if you need any help or have questions, I’ll be more than happy to try to give you a hand. [:)]
The book I have on the 109 is long out of production. It is part of a series called Classic Warplanes. According to this book there were a small number of D models build with the DB 600 engine but they proved to troublesome and they went back to the Jumo engines until the E series came out with the DB 601A. The Classic Airframes does not supply the parts to build the DB600 version only the Jumo. If you look at the pictures below the top one N 8 is labeled as a C model but the markings look similar to the kit decals labeled as D model from N/JG2. Mabye it is really a C model and not a D as in the instructions. I can not tell you for sure I can only repeat what I have read in books. In the second set of pictures there is a picture of a D with the DB600 engine. You can see the big differences you are talking about. So yes you can build both an C and a D but not a D with a DB600 engine. Another weird thing on the building instructions it only list the kit as a Bf 109D. It does not mention C anywhere on the instructions. It just says to check your references for which plane you are building. A little to unclear for me. I guess they leave the research up to you. Hope this helps you out.
This is an interesting discussion. There seems to be conflict between reference sources. I looked in Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green, and his version is that the B’s and C’s had the Jumo 210D or G, most B’s the 210D and most C’s the fuel injected 210G. In his view, all pre-production, and all 109D’s had the DB600 engine, which also included the change to underwing coolant radiators and a prominent supercharger intake on the left side of the cowl. The chin scoop was also much smaller. Green says only 200 D’s were built because of problems with the DB600 engine’s reliability, and that production of the 109C was extended to make up the shortfall until the DB601 powered 109E began production.
Interesting. I have about 15 reference books on the early 109, and none of the production B, C and D variants had a DB engine in them. They were all Jumo powered, at least according to all my books.
There were some early prototypes that were fitted with DB engines for testing and for racing competitions, but no production models had a DB until the E.
This is turning out to be very educational. I went back and re-read Green’s article, and here’s an excerpt that’s rather telling:
“A substantial number of these fighters had still to be issued to the first-line Jagdgruppen, and the Bf 109B was preponderant despite the carefully fostered belief that the Jumo 210-engined versions of the fighter were being phased out in favour of the Daimler-Benz-engined models that had allegedly already supplanted them on the assembly lines.”
Seeing that a DB-engined 109B won a land speed record, is it possible that the Luftwaffe simply pulled a fast one, a la Heinkel He-100D, claiming more units were equipped with DB-engined 109D’s for propaganda purposes, but in reality they were mostly 109C’s, or even 109B’s? And leaving us scratching our heads 70 years later.
It seems like we are all victims of Nazi propiganda even 70 years later. I have only found one drawing of a 109D that looked different than the C models. The top on on the second page has a different type of exaust than the other that looks alot like the style used on the Emil model. The caption states it is a tranier version but it still has the intake scoop on the top of the cowl like a Jumo not the side like the DB600. In all of the photos I have i can not seen and difference between the C and D models besides this one drawing. We can only base our information on what we are able to read in books and asume what we read is correct. If the info in the books conflict then no one can really say for sure what is right and what is not. I guess the best thing to do is find a photo of a specific plane and build it as you see it in the photo. At least you know that will be correct.
I’m glad you mentioned the Nazi propaganda. One of the big things the Nazis did was attempt to lead the world (and potential adversaries) that the Bf109 with the DB engines were in production and in active units, and in large numbers. They used the various prototypes (with DB engines) and involved them heavily in big public displays, like flying over the Olympics in 1936 as part of the opening ceremonies. They also became heavily involved in racing and setting speed records with the DB equipped Bf109 prototypes. This gained all sorts of attention and sent a shiver down the spines of all their neighbors in Europe. They tried to lead the world to believe that they were equipping front line units with an aircraft that was so superior to anything anyone else that could be fielded against it.
The propaganda machine, unfortunately for us, has lead to much confusion over the years. There is much information in print and on film that is misinformation and propaganda. Unfortunatly, this made many early works (40s -80s) highly suspect due to taking propaganda, news buletins etc. at face value and quite simply just not knowing any better.
I was completely unaware of those issues until I began researching the early Bf109s for the Spanish Civil War GB here on the forums. For example, Gotthard Handrick, the Olympic Gold Medalist from the 1936 Berlin Olympics flew a late Bf109B (sometimes refered to as a Bf109B-2, although not officially). He flew this aircraft with the Condor Legion. Later when he returned to Germany, his aircraft was issued to another Condor Legion pilot for a brief period and shortly thereafter it was transferred to the Spanish Air Force, never returning to Germany… ever. Yet there are pictures of “his” aircraft that were taken in Germany afterwards. Well, Goebbels, head of the Nazi propaganda machine, wanted to take advantage of Handrick’s notoriety as an Olympic champion etc. What they did was take a Bf109D, and doctored it up to look like Handricks aircraft for photo opportunities etc. In fact, if you research Handrick’s plane you’ll see two different setups. The one he actually flew had a white spinner with red and orange rings if I remember correctly. The propaganda machine had a gray spinner. There were some other minor differences as well, but all the photos of the D were represented as being the exact aircraft that Handrick flew in Spain. This, of course, has lead to all sorts of controversy as to whether he actually fought in a B or a D. Things like this really muddy up any research for even simple things like comparing a B to a D. And some people will argue to the death that his aircraft was a D, and others a B. I argue it’s both. The B was the one he used in combat, the D was “his” for the propaganda photos.
There are countless other situations similar to this for other Luftwaffe aircraft as well as armor. It’s complicated enough to research these things as it is, and then when you add the propaganda documention to the mix it’s no wonder we’re still debating these things today. Especially because after so many years have passed, who knows whats real and whats not. So it’s always good to question anything we see from that time period, and it’s excellent that we can all debate the issues here and compare notes… hopefully being able to decipher the “truth”. [:)]
I would have to agree with you espins1. The nice thing is everyone in this thread has voiced there opinion like gentlemen unlike some other threads I have read here when two people have conflicting information and each institing the other one does not know what they are talking about. I chose my words the same way you did in your reply. We are both only repeating what we have read in reference books and thats is all we have to base our opinions on. The only ones that know for sure there info is correct are the ones that repaired and flew the actual planes. Sometimes they are not even sure of the facts due to the long peroid of time that has passed. That is a good thing sometimes because it gives you a little freedom with you modeling and no one can say with 100% accuracy that you model is wrong.
Perhaps more confusion comes from the engine in the D being different from the one in the E, even though both were built by Daimler Benz. I am relying on Green, who does not indicate that any D’s went to Spain. He wrote that the engine in the D was a DB600, a transport or bomber engine, which was not reliable enough for a fighter. That statement was a little hard for me to understand, until I thought about the fighter probably requiring more use at the higher power settings than a transport or bomber, which would possibly bring about a reliability problem. The DB601 had the same bore and stroke as the DB600, but (again from Green) was designed for fighter use. The D’s were issued to units in Germany according to Green, but since few were built they did not show up much for pictures. The presence or lack of the underwing radiators is hard to see in most photos, leaving the left side supercharger intake and the smaller chin scoop housing only the oil radiator the only clues.
There is solid, photographic evidence of D’s serving with the Condor Legion, if you like I can scan some of the photos and post them here. Those of you that participated in the Spanish Civil War GB will recognize some of them as I posted them in that GB once I decided to build Werner Molders aircraft. Aircraft 6*79 flown by Werner Molders is clearly a D model, however I will agree that there were not many Ds sent to Spain. The vast majority of Bf109 aircraft in Spain were B models (early and late).
Great discussion gentlemen! [^] As Soulcrusher said, this is a great, civil discussion and it’s nice that everyone is sharing the information that they have available to them. Good job guys! [:)]
I found this handy chart online that list type and numbers of Bf 109 that served in Spain. It is complied from several difference sources so it makes a good cross reference. From this chart there definetly were Me 109 D’s in Spain but in very small numbers. It seems odd that it is hard to trace the origins of such a popular and most mass produced fighter in WWII. The more research you do on the early 109’s the more confused you get. I did notice while doing some research that the Classic Airframes D model does have some mistakes. The position of the oxygen filler and electrical port are in the earlier position in the cockpit instead of the panel behind the cockpit. I guess they overlooked that when the reboxed the A to the C/D version.
Also still trying to figure out this picture of a D model with a unusual exaust shrouds.
I interpret Green’s lack of comment on D’s in Spain as absence of proof, which is not the same as proof of absence. Just thought it was interesting that he would not comment, since much of what is in Warplanes of the Third Reich is very detailed. However, like a Russian 3 view of a Spitfire, just because it is detailed does not necessarily mean all the details are correct.
Soulcrusher,
I would interpret that profile as a Bf-109C because it has the small oil cooler under the left wing and the underwing coolant radiators are missing. It looks like a 109C chin scoop with the somewhat deeper profile than the B had with the more rounded profile at the leading edge of the scoop. Also, I do not see the long scoop of the supercharger intake found on the D, almost as large as the tropical filter found on later 109’s. Here is a photo that Green captioned as a 109D. If these photos are of a typical D, and not of an exception from the norm, the D chin scoop is very much like what is on the 109E.
I am going to have to dig out my Hobbycraft kit and compare it with these photos. Or maybe I should just burn my books! (Not likely.) Without the questions this thread has brought up, I would never have been aware of the differences that all seem so blindingly apparent now, not that I feel all that sure of any conclusions. There is always the exception.
Ah… that is actually one of the D series that was equipped with the DB 600 purely for propaganda purposes. Whenever you see a designation such as D-0, that means it was a protype being tested in actual service (in theory, here again, it was for propaganda to try to deceive Germany’s potential enemies into believing that DB equipped 109s were in front line service, when in fact they weren’t, not until the E-series). Because the DB engines weren’t ready for prime time yet they were forced to install the same Jumo engine that was used in the B-series in the actual production versions of the D series.
Soulcrusher - The profile of the D with the E series exhaust can be explained by the last paragraph below.
Here is some info that might be helpful to some of you. This is straight from “Messerschmitt Me109, Volume 1 From 1936 to 1942” by Anis Elbied and Andre Jouineau. I typed up several excerpts from that book. Italics are my notes that I’ve added for clarification purposes, quote marks indicate a block that I quoted, end quotes means I skipped a paragraph or two after that then continued typing up another section. I have underlined and/or bolded the specific passages which are especially helpful to our our discussion.
“With the exception of the three first prototypes (V1, V2 and V3), the other Bf 109Vs were used to perfect the first operational variants.”
“The Bf109V4 gave birth to the Bf109B powered by a jumo 210A and fitted with an extra machine gun, firing through the propeller boss. This machine which flew for hte first time in September 1936, was followed by two others, V-5 an V-6 powered a new Jumo 210D. Improvements were made to the windshield which was re-inforced, to the cooling system for the machine gun where three slots replaced the air intake and to the wing which was redisigned at the wings roots around the undercarriage. Four Bf109s, V-3, V-4, V-5 and V-6, together with the He112V-3, were sent off to Spain where the Civil War had broken out. In December 1936, they joined the 2/J88 of the Confor Legion equipped with He 51s.”
"Deliveries continued to the Condor Legion until the end of the confilct in March 1939, and included Bf109B, C, D and Es. About 130 Aaircraft were thought to have been sent to Spain of which a certain number were afterwards taken into the Spanish Air Force (Gotthard Handricks Bf109B Late was one of them - Scott).
The Bf 109B-1 (un-official designation, in reality they were referred to as an early B - Scott) was the first version to be mass-produced in Germany from February 1937 for almost a year. The original wooden airscrews which were replaced progresively from June 1937 by metal VDM 9-11072As.
This version was first delivered to the I and II/JG132 Richtofen and the I/JG234 Schlageter. The following version of the Bf 109C-1, derived from the V7, received a new Jumo 210G fuel-injection engine with two-stage compressor, together with two wing-mounted MG 17 machine guns to give more firepower. This engine was, for the most part, replaced by the Jumo 210D, because it was unavailable. Of the 341 aircraft produced, 35 were sent to Spain to join the Condor Legion.
On the Bf109C the engine hood had changed, with the exhaust pipes now sticking through the bodywork. Armament was re-inforced by the addition of wing-mounted MG 17 machine guns, and a direct injection Jumo 210G, giving 700hp, was to have been installed, but this was more often than not replaced by the 210D because of limited supplies. (interesting, seems that even the majority of the C models were equipped with the 210D engine because the 210G was unavailable, thus adding to the confusion. [%-)] - Scott).
The following model, the Bf 109D-1 (developed from the V 14 and 15) was a transition aircraft, brought out in anticipation of the Bf 109E which was to receive the DB 600 engine; it appeared at the end of 1937 and was practically indistinguishable from its forerunner because the long-awaited Jumo 210G, which never equipped a single 109, was still not available. The rare models which got a DB 600 were considered as prototypes for the E version. Armament frequently consisted of four machine guns although a 20-mm cannon had been mounted in the wings of a few Bf109D-3s."
Unfortunately I’m at work so I can’t scan a set of profiles that would be useful, however I’ll type up the caption for the D.
“Bf 109D. Originally to have been equipped with the new DB 600 engine, this model did not differ very much from the Bf 109C and kept the Jumo 210. Some models were given the DB 600 for propaganda purposes.” So again, the DB equipped D series aircraft, which were very few in number were a product of the Goebbels propaganda machine - Scott
Here is some additional info from Squadron/Signal publications Aircraft No. 44"Messerschmitt Bf 109 in action Part 1"
"Bf109D ‘Dora’
In 1934, when the original specifications were issued to the four competing manufacturers, the proviso was made that the Junkers Jumo 210 powerplant would be interchangeable with the more powerful, but less developed Daimler-Benz DB 600 powerplant. It was intended that the Bf 109D series would introduce the more powerful Daimler-Benz engine. (key word intended - Scott)
Scheduled for the spring of 1938 the planned introduction was delayed for several reasons. First, because it was felt that the bomber force was a great deterrent to Great Britain and france and, since the DB 600 engine also powered the Heinkel He 111, then the backbone of Germany’s bomber force, the Heinkel won out. Second, the DB 600 had proven reliable enough to be installed in twin-engine aircraft, but wasn’t considered reliable enough to be certified for use in single-engine aircraft. Third, Daimler-Benz assured Luftwaffe procurement that serial production of the superior DB 601 powerplant was about to commence.
As always, however, what the Reich’s industry could not produce, Goebbel’s propaganda ministry invented (ah yes, we can thank the propaganda ministry for much of the confusion we see now days regarding the early 109… [sigh] - Scott). In an effort to mislead Germany’s enemies into believeing that the more powerful and faster DB 600 powered Bf 109D was actually in production, several DB 600 equipped prototypes were photographed in spurious service markings. (key word spurious markings, make believe… again as part of the plan to mislead the world - Scott) Other than these machines there is no factual evidence to suggest that a DB 600 Dora was serially produced.
What in fact was produced in numbers was an interim Jumo 210Da powered Bf 109D-1 that was essentially similar to the earlier C series. In anticipation of higher loading, local strengthening was carried out and a heavier main wing spar was introduced, a new cantilever leg for the tail wheel replaced the braced one and a Revi C/12D gunsight was introduced.
Coming off the assembly line during the spring of 1938 the first Doras were issued to I/JG 131 at Jesau. By August 1938 the Bf 109 still mae up less than half of the Luftwaffe’s 643 first-line fighters. Production tempo was such that only seven weeks later Luftwaffe strength reports indicated that 583 Bf 109s were on strength. In anticipation of receiving the twin-engine Bf 110 the Jagdflieger was reorganized into leichten (light) and schweren (heavy) Jagdgruppen. On 1 January 1939 the Schweren Jagdgruppen were redisignated Zerstorergruppen and shortly began re-equipping with the Bf 110.
The Dora which was essentially the same as the C series with the exception of reverting to the earlier Jumo 210Da, underwent one further development when the exhaust evacuation system was revised on late production D-1 aircraft. It is not known whether this system, externally very similar to the E exhaust system, was a production change or retrofitted to existing aircraft. The author has found no evidence that aircraft with this exhaust system served outside of training units. (so this would explain some of the D series aircraft that have the E series exhaust, but the lower scoup of the Jumo powered aircraft. - Scott)."
I think what you have there is definetly a D-0 build with the DB600 engine jeaton. As it says in the caption it was retained by messerschmitt. This would be in line with mosts beliefs that they intented to build them that way but in reality the engine was not ready for front line service and the D models that were delivered for service were powered by the Jumo 210D. This is what makes it so hard to tell a C from a D model. This is probally one of the planes shown off in the 1937 Zurich air show to make us believe the DB600 was ready for service when it really was not. I have never seen a picture of a front line service D model with a three blade prop and shallow nose cooler and long air intake mounted on the left side of the cowl panel. I can only assume this is the DB600 engine under the cowl which brought all of these changes to the nose of the plane. This thread is getting to be very interesting! Lots of great info flying around. I think I have learned more about early 109’s in the last couple of days than I have in the last couple of years!
I do think the William Green’s series of books were great for their time, but they do include some serious errors. For example, the Macchi series of fighters are a favorite of mine and he shows a picture of a M.C. 202 with underwing 20mm pods as used on the BF 109’s. This he refers to as one from a cannon armed batch of aircraft. It was just a single production aircraft tested to check the feasiblity of the upgrade, no further conversions were done. The additional wing loading reduced the performance of the aircaft and it was not adopted.
Like mentioned earlier, scrutiny over more documents available has increased our knowledge in recent years over purposeful misdirections made by the various propagand machine.
I did a mountain of research before beginning my Classic Airframes 1/48 Bf109D for the Spanish Civil War GB. I had known a lot about the E and G series, but virtually nothing about the early Bf109. As usual, a bit of Obsessive compulsiveness kicked in and I wound up with a big stack of reference books on the early 109. I learned a lot and was able to unravel at least some of the confusion and mis-information that was out there.
I’m just glad I was able to share some of my research with you all. [:)]
