montague’s loss is DoogsATX’s gain.
Or should I say this is win-win.[:P]
DoogsATX, can you confirm that you received the HP-CS from montaque in good working order. His comment is so strange.
I have a Patriot and a Krome. The Krome was $117 and the Patroit was about $75. The Krome is well worth paying more for.
I don’t use the Patroit at all after getting the Krome. About the only thing I might use the Patroit for is wide coverage primer, but the Krome can handle this, just thin the primer a little more.
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[:|]Wow
Montague, I apologize for offending you, even if it is unintentional. I am sorry.
Your experience and opinion of the Patriot vs. the HP-CS is so different from everybody else except MikeV. The most surprising statement was that you said the Patriot had better atomization. I am just curious about what could have been the reason? On this forum we had posts asking for help to fix airbrushes from very experienced user all the time. It is not a shame to not knowing what is wrong with the airbrush. I asked DoogsATX for a second opinion about what could have been wrong with the HP-CS. If the CS is in good shape, I can understand that there are users who likes the more forgiving nature of the Patriot design. No insinuation intended. All airbrushes need tender loving care, no exception.
Why is his comment so strange Keilau?
I agree with him and I owned an HP-CS as well. Sold it as my Badgers had a smoother trigger and better control. Maybe I had a bad one but it doesn’t really matter as I have no desire to buy the overpriced airbrushes coming out of Japan that have seemed to become a fad like cheap brands of coffee like Starbucks. [:P]
Don’t drag me into this. Both of my CSes work fine, though I dropped in a .5mm needle/nozzle into #2 when I got it. I personally don’t understand how someone could find a Patriot preferable, but again, airbrushes are super subjective. As much so as cars or cameras. I like my Iwatas and Nikons and Minis. Your results my vary.
If you can lay 3 airbrush needles side by side, the Patriot, the Krome and the Iwata HP-CS, you will see the difference in quality of the manufacturing. Did you ever wonder why the Krome costs so much more than the Patriot, both from Badger? To most users, the usage experience matches the needle and airbrush quality in manufacturing.
I do not judge an airbrush by brand, I do by its quality.
Gee DoogsATX, I would have thought a discerning and skilled individual such as yourself would use nothing less than Canon[8-|]!!! Just joking, of course, cuz I like my Nikon too! But it does remind me - I once asked a very well known professional photographer what brand camera he used and he replied 'that’s just like asking an author what brand typewriter he/she uses". I think the same applies to airbrushes - it’s the skill of the user not the brand of airbrush. My HF $15 deluxe AB or my $18 no-name Chinese AB spray paint just as well as my $130 H&S Evolution in my hands. If you’re happy with the Patriot - good for you; if you’re happy with the Krome - good for you; or, if you’re happy with your Iwata HPCS - good for you. And, if you’re happy with another brand, well, good for you too! Airbrush choice is very personal and the one that works best for you is the one you want.
I definitely think the skill of the user is uber-important…but I think equipment matters, too. I know I can do a lot more with my HP-CS than I can with my old Paasche H. I know I can do a lot more with my HP-C+ than I can with my HP-CS. Just like I know I can do more with my Nikon D300s than I can with a mid-range point-and-shoot.
With equipment, though, it’s partly straight-up capability, and partly the highly subjective quality of “feel”. Why do I prefer Nikon to Canon? I like the way Nikon’s cameras feel in the hand better, and I’m used to their menus and interface. Why do I prefer Minis to my current Ford Focus? Feel. Why do I prefer Iwata to Badger and Harder & Steenbeck? Feel. The combination of weight and balance, the linear taper of the needle, and the slightly stiffer trigger action that I feel gives me a better tactile sense of what’s going on.
Again, totally subjective and your mileage may vary.
DoogsATX, very well articulated points. I hope that the new bee on the market for his/her first airbrush understands too.
What I am thinking now, is that I might get the Iwata airbrush because I would hardly ever used the .21 needle size as I am planning on using enamel paint most of the time. So the .35 needle and the .5 needle would be the better choice for me I think.
I don’t think I would be missing out much because this would be my first airbrush so I would not know the difference between a badger an Iwata anyways. But since I do not know what kind of paint I would be using yet for sure, I may go for the Krome.
For right now I do not know for sure which airbrush I would be getting so my opinions may change in the near future. But in the meantime please keep the comments coming as they are a big help in helping me decide on which brush to get.
Don’t decide until you try both the Iwata HP-CS and the Krome in your hand. Both are heavier, but well balanced airbrushes, compared to, like, the Patriot. They are the right weight for me. Both have very smooth trigger, but the Iwata is stiffer. If not sure which one you like better, go with your intuition.
The needles from both have identical 6 degrees linear flow angle, which determines the performance more than the difference in nozzle size. You will have a small learning curve to use and care for them. They allow skill build up faster than cheaper alternatives. It is very rewarding to learn from a better airbrush.
Either one would be good choice for a first airbrush. You may consider the price and local availability of spares (needle, nozzle etc.) as the deciding factor.
WutDaFunk,
If you might be interested in the Krome ArtSupply has the 2 in 1 on sale now for $97.00 which I think is a good price.
Also, in you search for info and for another modelers view of airbrushes for scale models have a look at Paul Budzik’s site. In addition to AB’s, have a look around his site, he’s a master modeler.
Unfortunately, since this is your first airbrush, you won’t know what you like or dislike until you use it for a while. Any quality airbrush will spray paint for you but likes and dislikes become personal - as I’ve said, I like my H&S Evolution because it feels right to me when I use it, not because other AB’s are bad. Whichever you buy it’s is going to take some practice. HTH and good luck with your choice.
Keilau, I just need to ask, are you absolutely sure that about the relevance of the angle of the needle? Proof that it matters more than nozzle size? Because I have my doubts about it. Not that it’s irrelevant, but as with most things, one of many contributing factors. Others than nozzle size and needle angle might be nozzle outside angle, surface polishing of the needle, nozzle inside polishing (though I doubt it) nozzle cap design, needle cap design, air feed channel design, paint channel design and so on. To isolate one or two things as what determines performance, might be making it a bit too simple.
And maybe, how do we define performance? Is it detail capability alone?
I’m not saying that you are wrong, but sometimes things can’t be explained by one single factor. And sometimes things are the opposite of what you think is logical.
denstore, I am trying to address the misconception that Krome is a finer detailed airbrush than the HP-CS because it is 0.21 mm vs 0.35 mm nozzle. I found both provide very good atomization and draw tight line with minimum overspray. They are both good modeling airbrushes. I don’t do free hand camo and is not in a position to judge the fine detailing performance of anything.
Yes, I believe that the large angles of the Patriot’s bi-cone needle makes it very different from the Krome or the HP-CS. And I like the later much better.
Otherwise, I agree with everything else you said.
There are other things the end user cannot see too, such as the quality of the material of the needle and the annealing during manufacturing. Many users find difference in the springiness and resistence to damage of the needle from different brands. There is a reason to that. That’s the crazy engineer in me talking.[6]
It was more of a rhetoric question, but also a reaction to the fact that I know of a couple of airbrushes that I’ve tried that didn’t have a small angle needle, but still where excellent detailing airbrushes. I would say that most, if not all, manufacturers match their needles to perform good with the nozzle of choice.
Usually large nozzle airbrushes comes with steeper angle needles, and vice versa.
Sometimes the angles might be a bit larger or smaller depending on what characteristic of trigger response and intended use the airbrush designer is looking for.
Nozzle size is certainly not the only factor interesting for describing “performance”, but in general, nozzle size will be a fair point of reference within the brand, and quite often between brands as well. Needle angle hasn’t had that impact. And in reality, few brands even mention it.
Hi Keilau and Denstore,
I don’t know how to quote from two separate posts so will use cut and paste
Keilau you wrote:
“I don’t do free hand camo and is not in a position to judge the fine detailing performance of anything.”
But that is exactly what you were addressing when you wrote:
I am trying to address the misconception that Krome is a finer detailed airbrush than the HP-CS because it is 0.21 mm vs 0.35 mm nozzle."
Whether the Krome or HPCS is ‘better’ at detailing might depend on what you mean by detailing. If you were an airbrush artist trying to airbrush eyebrows you would likely choose one over the other.
And Denstore wrote:
“Nozzle size is certainly not the only factor interesting for describing “performance”, but in general, nozzle size will be a fair point of reference within the brand, and quite often between brands as well. Needle angle hasn’t had that impact. And in reality, few brands even mention it.”
I sure agree with this!! There’s as much physics involved in the design of an airbrush as there is engineering. Take any airbrush currently made and replace ALL components with aluminum. I think it would function quite well - probably not for long but quite well initially.
BUT, let’s not mislead the OP with all these details. I don’t think it matters one iota whether the needle angle is 6 or 60 degrees but a nozzle/needle combo of greater than 0.2mm is probably easier to learn. The Patriot might just be the airbrush he likes but he won’t know till he tries it, So, I say, Watdafunk, ignore what all us experts say and buy what looks good to you. If you buy a brand name one it’s likely to work quite well; buy a Badger, Grex, Iwata, Paasche or H&S and start painting.
In my personal opinion, the Krome and HP-CS both have enough performance for the average modeler. In that, I mean linear trigger action and small overspray when painting smaller area. I do not see the 0.21 mm nozzle of the Krome giving it an advantage over the 0.35 mm nozzle of the Iwata. But the comment does not apply to Patriot. From the beginning, my comments are meant for the “average” modeler.
If someone believe that the Patriot is as good as the Krome, I disagree.
If someone believe that the Krome can do finer detail than the HP-CS in free hand camo modeling, show me.
Which one you believe will do a better job airbrushing eyebrows? And I am not an artist and have no opinion on that. That is not the original post asking.
Problem is that there’s no right or wrong here. Sure, the Patriot might be a good start for a novice airbrusher, since the large nozzle almost eliminates the need of learning to thin paint properly. But on the other hand, it might not be the best for detail work, especially if the user hasn’t understood the necessity of proper thinning of paint. And I suppose that the Patriot with the “superfine” conversion might give it detailing properties, but then the user must learn to thin anyway.
The Eclipse on the other hand has a medium nozzle as is, and used with modern modeling paint thinned about 50/50, will probably be enough for most modelers, both when it comes to ease of maintenance and use, and performance. I would almost say its foolproof. The real strength of the Eclipse is that there isn’t any real need to change nozzles. It is good as delivered, for most modeling work.
For serious detailing work, there are plenty of airbrushes that are better, but few that are as versatile as the Eclipse. It is not my favorite airbrush. I like it, but as most jacks of all trades, its a master of none. To me, that owns a lot of airbrushes, of several brands, I prefer specialized airbrushes, made for one type of work alone. But that isn’t the need of the average airbrusher (and in reality, probably not me either :D), and then the Eclipse will probably shine for people wanting one airbrush only.