a few questions about the RF4B Phantom that has me puzzeled:
just what is the difference between an RF4B and an RF4C? I dug out my Detail & Scale books last night only to find they had nothing about the “B” model in it!
can I use the cocpit photos from an RF4C as a reference to a “B”?
what do I have to do to convert an RF4B to an RF4C or an RF4E?
I’m using the 1/48th Hasegawa RF4B kit for a start, but maybe I need to look elsewhere.
gary
I’m no expert but according to the D&S book on Navy Phantoms the B and C have differently shaped camera noses. That is the big diff between these models. Of course the B and C are very different than the E.
Gary
I think that the RF-4B models were based on the B model for the Navy/Marine Corps and the RF-4C was based on the C model for the Air Force. I think that the Air Force versions had the thicker tires and wings to support them. But I am not too sure. I know that the C model Phantoms were a ground version of the Navy’s B model so I don’t think it’s not much of a stretch to assume that the recce Phantoms were based on the same criteria. But I cannot remeber for sure.
the nose of the Hasegawa kit is the one with the strait bulge for the cameras. But I thought that the strait one was the later one (RF4E). There’s also supposed tobe a difference in the wings and at least one bulge on the back behind the cockpit. What I have managed to gather is that the first six RF4C’s were really RF4B’s purchased from the Navy. There’s an RF4 over in dayton, but it’s actual model number escapes me (it has the strait camera bulge). Guess the RF4B was kind of an oddball with only 12 produced.
gary
The B’s nose had “rounded” contours while the C was more angular. IIRC the E had the same as the C but for export only. Navy Phantoms also didn’t have consoles in the rear seat and I think the photo birds were the same. Only the Marines operated the RF-4. The Navy used the RF-8 until the Tomcat’s TARP pod came along. The Marines were supposed to get an RF-18 that never materialised. I do think one RF-4B was repaired with an RF-4C nose (or the other way around).
gary
The RF-4B used the airframe of the F-4B. It has the thin wings and small tires as used on the F-4B. The RF-4C used the airframe of the F-4C, which had the larger tires and thick wings. The cockpits were almost identical except the RF-4B did not have the flight control stick, throttles, rudder pedels, and flight instruments in the rear cockpit. It did have the side consoles like the RF-4C.
The only way to convert the RF-4B to a RF-4C or RF-4E is to make the correct wing bulges and use the main gear from a large gear Phantom. You would also have to use the gear doors also.
The best way to convert would be to graft the RF-4B nose to the F-4C/D. That would give you a RF-4C.
The thin wing F-4’s are hard to find, so it it was me, I would keep it as a RF-4B or convert it into a F-4B.
There were only 12 RF4B’s built, so the options are very limited. I did find out that there were actually two different camera bulges used on the RF4C’s, and the first six RF4C’s had the thin wings (were made off of RF4B’s). So right now it looks like I’m building an RF4B with an ugly green tail!
gary
Here is a couple of pics of RF-4B’s I worked on. VMCJ-3, El Toro, Calif. 1973
Hope they help!
I don’t know where you got your information, but there were forty-six RF-4B’s built. The last ten aircraft (157342-157351) were built with the thicker wings. The last three (157349-157351) were built with the rounded nose section. All other had the flat underside nose section.
None of the RF-4C’s had the thin wings. All were produced from F-4C airframes. The RF-4C was produced and operational in the USAF before the RF-4B. The Navy liked the idea of a Photo Phantom and ordered them for the Marines. All RF-4B’s were produced from the F-4B airframe, except for the last ten aircraft. The reason was MDD had stopped making the thin wings as the Navy was no longer ordering the F-4B or the RF-4B. When the navy ordered the last batch of RF-4B’s the only wings available were the thick wings as used on the F-4J. That is why the last ten had the thick wings.
I’m not at home to check out my Scale and Detail and Recon Phanthom kit but I seemed to remember the 1/48 RF-4B Hasegawa kit has the thick wings of the C. However the last “B’s” off the assembly line used the “C” wings and Hasegawa gives the correct Serial Numbers for the kit birds. I think that is where you are getting the “only 12 RF-4B’s were built”. You would need an old Hasegaws B/N kit to rob the thin wings to make a more accurate RF-4B. I also thought the two different camera housings were included in the Hasegawa 1/48 kit. Maybe just “dreaming”.
my info came from D&S and the kit itself. D&S says that the first seven planes ordered were for the airforce, and of these seven the first six were built off of RF4B airframes with the thin wings like the Navy used. The pictures showed the nose much better than what I had, and it’s completely different than the F4C’s. The kit was the source for the 12 planes issued to the Marines. D&S pretty much leaves out the RF4B in their specs so it becomes somewhat of a mistory for me. Thus all the questions.
Still one has to take into fact that the books were written in the early eighties, and data may not have been complete.
gary
I guess I’ll just dig into the kit to see just what wings are supplied. The decales are all Marine, and the kit # is PT31:3200. I stand corrected about the total built (46), but they do appear to be in at least three blocks. The wings are fat, and looks like a late seventies bird. Must have read the data sheet after a couple cold ones.
gary
This listing may be helpful to determine which exact aircraft the kit is meant to represent.
http://www.rf4bphantom.com/prod01.htm
If the listing linked above is correct, there were ten production blocks represented in the 46 aircraft built.
The main site may also be of interest. http://www.rf4bphantom.com/intro.htm
Gary,
I looked up the Kit Review for the Hasegawa RF-4B and it states the kit has both types of camera housings and the longer exhausts of the C. So you should have everything except the decals to make an RF-4C with the kit you have. Probably have to make sure you have the USAF type wing pylons and fill in the side refuelling probe doors under the canopy rails and your set.
Just looked at the kit, and your right about the side refueling door needing tobe filled. There was also one back behind the cockpit that was an irregualr shape, that will need to be added. I did get some good photos of the “flat and square” camera housing over in Dayton last fall, but have no idea if the plane was a “C” or later model. Been wanting to go back over there again, so now I have an excuse, and I just wanted to make it right from the getgo.
gary
The Marine RF-4Bs were intended for carrier operations, so they had to have the red/yellow/green “indexer lights” with the carrier landing system. MDD replaced the port landing taxi light on the forward nose gear door of the RF-4C with this three light group. Also necessary for carrier ops were the catapult bridle hooks under the leading edge of the wing just outboard of the fuselage sides. These were not present on the Air Force Phantoms. Those last ten RF-4Bs with the thick wings also had the long burner exhausts of the F-4E and F-4J. Both the RF-4B and the RF-4C had the Sparrow missile wells under the fuselage faired over. The back wells were flush with the fuselage bottom while the front wells had a bulged, aerodynamic fairing over them.
Darwin, O.F. [alien]
Yardbird78, I would be interested in knowing where you got the information that the last batch of RF-4B’s had the longer exhaust nozzels. All of my reference state that all the RF-4B’s used the J-79GE-8 engines which had the short nozzels.
Also as stated above, all the USAF RF-4C’s used the Navy style straight pylons. At first none of the RF-4C were pylon capable, but all were later modified to carry the Navy style pylon so that an ECM pod could be carried. None ever operated with the rounded USAF style pylon.
I worked on the RF-4C in Vietnam from June '67-'68. None of our jets were modified to carry the pylons. Starting in late '68 a Depot team came in and started the mod so they could carry the pylons.
The first F-4 operated by the USAF were actually F-4B’s on loan from the Navy. They were given the designation F-110A. The USAF ordered the F-4C which had beefed up gear, an anti skid system, which resulted in the thicker wings. Other additions were cartridge start system for the engine, AN/AJB 7 bombing computer, more powerful radar which included ground attack modes. The first F-4C aircraft used the Navy style pylons which limited their capability, so all were later modified with a different style pylon as seen on all versions of the USAF Phantoms, except the RF-4C.
Kalmbach Books, Color and Markings, Volume 23, “Recon Phantoms”, copyright 1994. Page 64 has photos of 7342 in overall gray paint with the rainbow colors on the fin as well as 7351 in the overall black with white markings. Both of these aircraft distinctly show the long burner cans. Both were painted in special markings for the retirement ceremony of VMFP-3 on 30 September, 1990. One of my Phantom books, (I can’t pinpoint the exact one at the moment), comments that the last 12 RF-4Bs, (the ten you mention and 2 with earlier BuNos) were based on F-4J airframes. Thus they had the fat wheels, thick wings and late model J-79 with the long burner cans.
A tidbit of extra knowledge to add to your already extensive encylopedia of F-4 information.
Darwin, O.F. [alien]
well looking at the kit, it has the fat wings in it. But it also has thin wing decales, as best I can figure out. Does anybody make a set with the rainbow tail, or the skull & stars on the tail? I did find an old magazine that’s loaded with F4B photos over the weekend.
gary
Thanks for that bit of information. I may have some knowledge on the F-4. but I don’t know everything. And after being retired 20 years, I have forgot most of what I did know. Now where did I put my meds I have to take? Or did I already take them? [%-)]