Yup.
Beat me to it. My Badger 100LG even though a gravity feed, it’s much more difficult to clean than my Iwata. The nozzle comes apart more easily too. My Sotar is essentially the same mechanical design as the 100LG with a finer nozzle and probably better manufacturing tolerances.
The cr, the gravity feed one, I’m guessing that the bcr is a bottom feed?
:)…you got it. HP-BCR is the bottle feeder. I’ve been tempted to get a CR but it almost scares me because of the low price. I’ve got an HP-C and HP-B and they cost far more then the CR. Why the big price difference? Did Iwata make shortcuts on quality? Or is it the Iwata’s competitor’s air brushes lower prices finally made Iwata do profit cutting to gain inroads in the air brush market share percentages? Maybe the proven air brush design molds are paid for to the point where Iwata can now sell them cheap.
That is exactly right. Time for a little airbrush history. [:D]
I have told people on this forum many times before about how Iwata copied Thayer & Chandler’s design with the Eclipse to compete, and I told a friend in the business about how I try and tell you folks here that the Omni is comparable and less money than Iwata’s Eclipse and received this answer:
“As for doing anything an Eclipse or Revolution will do, it’s the other way around. Both of those brushes were hastily thrown together and put on the market several years ago just as an effort to save part of the marketplace. The Vega had swept the market, and the Omni was finishing off the other airbrush manufacturers rapidly. Iwata and Paasche threw Vega “knock-offs” on the market to save their butts. True story!”
I think that sums it up well.
Mike
I just got my Omni 4000 in the mail so I’m on week one. First impressions are not good. The Iwata is much more solidly built. The color cup on the Omni looks to be a bear to clean. Pic links below. The iwata cup is polished on the inside and is tapered to match the milling cut from the body of the brush. Breeze to clean. Also the Omni looks nearly identical to my Badger 100LG with the exception that the omni has an open handle for access to the needle. The color cup on the 100LG is designed with a smoother attatchment point, so I’d bet that the 100LG would be easier to clean than the omni. One could say (in a very general way) that the design relation of the 100LG to the Omni is like the Revolution CR to the Eclipse HP-CS.
Here’s a pic of the Iwata color cup. Very smooth joint
http://www.plummersmines.com/modelling/iwata_cup.jpg
compared to the Omni. It seems to have been attatched sloppily. Note the rough, uneven attatchment point.
http://www.plummersmines.com/modelling/omni_cup.jpg
Even the sotar cup is smoother (the 100LG is also but I lent it to a friend so I couldn’t take pics.
http://www.plummersmines.com/modelling/sotar_cup.jpg
It’s hard to tell from the pics but on close inspection the trigger mechanisms and main body structure on the sotar and omni (as well as the 100LG) are identical.
http://www.plummersmines.com/modelling/omni_sotar.jpg
Proof is in the pudding, or spraying and actual cleaning. first try tomorrow.
I would argue that the finish inside the cup bears very little on cleaning speed and is not worth the extra $35 in price for such a small thing even if it was.
It’s not like paint gets into some nooks and crannies that can’t be cleaned.
Put some thinner in the Omni color cup and take an old paint brush and wipe around inside the bottom area of the cup then spray out the thinner and shoot some more. I can clean mine in about 5 minutes.
Mike
[#ditto]
Are you going by “looks” alone or have you tried it. I can do a “quick clean” move onto another color and save the in-depth cleaning for when its time to put it away which as Mike put it, only takes a few minutes and thats if your slow(no offense Mike LOL) Crank open the reg and drain that paint cup…
I’m sorry Mike, and no offense to your friend whom you quoted, but I can hardly believe that the Iwata, be it Eclipse or Revolution were throw-togethers. Unless, I’m missing the point, I think there is some bias and a lack of objectivity speaking there. I have the Revolution CR and while it’s the lesser of the Iwatas in cost, it is a fine piece of equipment. There is absolutely nothing that I do not like about it. When you look at it and hold it in your hand, you know you’re holding quality. Taking it apart, confirms just that. It sprays like a dream and I wouldn’t be afraid to put it up against any other brush. When I did the research for an airbrush, and I did a lot (mainly on Yahoo Airbrush Forums), the number one recommended brush was by far the Iwata and that is why I went the route I did. I do not regret it. Eventually, I will get around to purchasing an Omni because I am in need of another good brush; have some respect for your opinion; and because I firmly believe in buying American. When I’ve used both brushes, then I may have something further to add to this topic.
John
I don’t think he meant they were not good quality, as he was referring to how they came about into the market hastily. Iwata had no airbrush out even close in appearance to the Vega and Omni until these models became so hugely popular and then Iwata suddenly had the Eclipse siphon-feed to compete in the market that they had no competition in.
The same was true for Paasche who came out with the Millennium to compete.
My friend was part of the team that helped design the Vega and Omni by the way and he has used and owns practically every airbrush ever made from the Walkup airbrush made in 1885 to the present models. Does he have a bias? I’m sure he does as we all do when we like a certain brand.
Check out his collection here on his web site under the ‘Collection’ link on the web page.
http://www.topgun-airbrush.com/
It’s a pretty impressive collection.
Mike
The finish in the cup isn’t the real issue in cleaning, my point was the fact that the Iwata cup has almost no nooks and crannies whereas the omni I just got is all nooks and crannies.(see above pics) I can get the cup of my iwata completely clean (not including the needle shaft just the cup) with a tissue and a q-tip in less than 20 seconds. in two minutes I can have the entire brush ready to put away.
I plan to do my first spray with the omni tomorrow. The trigger isn’t nearly as smooth in terms of operation as my Iwata, if I’m not happy with first try I’ll lubricate it and try again. So many people praise the Omni that I was surprised and dissapointed but it’s sloppy construction. Did I get a dud that I need to return?
“I don’t think he meant they were not good quality, as he was referring to how they came about into the market hastily.”
I follow you now, Mike. Very impressive collection of brushes from a very knowledgable and talented individual. I’ve read his commentaries and noted his posts on other forums. No doubt he is devoted to the Thayer Chandler line, though. But… that as you imply, is an aspect we all carry. An extreme to this is the reason I own nothing but Fords and would rather push one then to drive a Chevy…LOL! Not really but you get the point.
I hear you John.
I own a 1998 F-150 X-cab and although this is my first Ford pickup I think I will be a regular customer as I love it. [:D]
Mike
I doubt it. You are just used to the Iwata which is smoother and has tighter tolerances, but then again it costs about 33% more than the Omni so you would expect something for that much money. I don’t think the end results are worth the extra money spent but that is up to the individual. I personally would rather spend my money on products made in America where American families are benefitted and not a country overseas that steals other countries designs and ideas and makes them into their own.
But that is another story. [soapbox]
Mike
Did some practice and a quick test. I used windsor and newton black ink thinned with alcohol as a test. sprayed the same mixture through my sotar, iwata and omni. I usually don’t do fine lines with my iwata. I found that with the ink at least the omni sprays very well. atomizes as well as the iwata and better than the sotar with the same mixture. I was able to spray finer lines with no effort with the iwata and sotar. I don’t think many need to spray this small though. I found the sticky trigger on the omni didn’t cause the problems I thought it would. Cleaning was frustrating on the omni compared to the iwata and even the sotar. Will try enamels next.
Top line Iwata, second line Omni Third line sotar.
PS watchout if I get on my soapbox about the disappearance of the American work ethic. I’ve always worked to do the best job I can and I will not support some lazy videogame playing retard who has no interest in bettering him/herself. The most confident person is the one who is ignorant of what he/she has left to learn.
So because you disagree with the ethics of some American workers, which I agree is true, that means that you won’t buy American made products?
Mike
Plum1030,
Hopefully this will answer your questions as to why the Sotar, Badger and T&C Omni all look similar as well as why American made products from company’s like Badger are worth supporting.
First, let me say that I will be the first to say that “The Factory” in Japan does some very nice and precise machine work and builds the best machined airbrushes in the world except for the Sotar. “The Factory” is an independent entity that builds airbrushes and sprayguns for Iwata, Olympos, Richpen, Peak, and many others. Iwata Airbrushes in the US are distributed exclusively by Medea out of Portland Oregon. “Medea”: A greek goddess best known for eating her own children…now there’s a nice thought! Medea and Anest Iwata contrary to popular belief, are not related. At any rate, Iwata is a well built airbrush and they work great until they fail for the first time, and the failure is usuallly catastrophic and requires factory reconditioning. The replacement parts cost is three to four times higher than American made airbrushes. With modelling, the failure aspect may not be as critical due to the fact that the airbrush will never undergo the constant and continual usage that the art field puts on them.
The color cup smoothness and attachment characteristics are irrelevent to the operation of the airbrush, and do not impede cleaning if done properly.
The Badger 100LG and the Omni were developed very independently, but are both direct descendants of the Thayer & Chandler/Charles Burdick “Fountain Airbrush” design patented in 1891. Badger Evolved from the Schlotfeldt Screw Machine Company founded by August Schlotfeldt. SCMS did most of the machine work for Thayer, Paasche, Wold, and Binks, so it would stand to reason that Badger Airbrushes would be similar to T&C products. Over the years, many of the parts on T&C (and other) airbrushes were developed and patented by the Schlotfeldt Company, and then used on the Badger lines later. At least everything on a Badger or T&C is legally implemented and used. The Japanese Factory has simply stolen and/or modified US patented components and guns. They even stole the name “Eclipse” as it was an American airbrush company in the 1940’s. My allegiance lies with T&C and Badger for many reasons. First and foremost is the unparalleled customer service. Second, Badger/T&C provides many jobs in the US, and many American children are supported as a result. The Badger T&C workforce is a family, and the lowliest worker on the foodchain takes pride in their products as if the product was their own. The president of their company will take over any work station in the main plant while the worker takes a break! And on Fridays when he is not on the road, he cooks lunch for the entire workforce!
I hope this little bit of history helps shed some light on this issue.
Mike
ya know who you remind me of mike? the nieghbor of tim the tool man! ya know the one you never see, but he always has great advice or a good story. [(-D] anyway, to anyone who cares, i own an omni 5000 brush from T&C and love it. i read a few posts on this forum before i purchased just to see what people were using. and like usual, you get 6,894,347 different opinions about 397 diferent airbrushes[banghead]. i wound up being more frustrated by reading this forum and trying to choose than i did trying to learn how to use these precious instuments of art. never once has my trigger felt “sticky”. i use mine with the spring adjuster backed down til its almost touching the needle chuck. i like it like that. my omni and me get along great. shucks, i would even go as far as to say its my friend[^]. later folks.
end of soapbox… neither of us will understand the other’s point of view sufficiently enough to resolve it here. I bought 3 badgers and 2 pasche brushes before going to the iwata. I tried to buy american and the american product didn’t do what I needed it to. The incentive to stay away from some iwata brushes is building anyway. the price for the HP-CS has shot up since I bought mine just a couple of months ago.
Each of us has to make our own decision on what we need Karl. If you found that in the Iwata then that is fine, I don’t frown upon anyone who chooses another brand than the ones made here in the U.S. [;)]
Mike