A forum for criticism?

Modeling Subjects Aircraft
1

Hi Everyone,

I been trying to get an idea off the ground over on the suggestions and feedback forum and I could use your help.

For a while, forum members have been discussing the pro’s and con’s of giving feedback to modelers who post their work on these boards. In essence, a small number of us feel that a critque forum would be useful here.

There have been some occassions when members have recieved criticism and felt offended by it. Because of this, many of us here have been very careful not to offend or have stopped replying to such posts altogether. This is a real shame as we have a so many talented and experienced people here who would glady offer their advice, if they thought that its what the person posting their work actually wants.

So my idea is this, if we had a critque forum here, those wanting constuctive criticism could post there. Those who still want to share their work but don’t want it “ripped to pieces” could post in the respective model forum, i.e. aircraft, armor, auto’s etc.

This hopefully would be a happy medium for all who post their builds here and many of us will be able to learn and improve our builds due to the advice found on a critque forum.

I have posted this idea on the suggestions forum and it has only had a limited response, if this is something that is wanted, then we need to show support for it. If you are in favour of it, help us out and add your support to the thread over on Suggestions and Feedback, you can see it here:

/forums/733949/ShowPost.aspx#7339

Thanks for taking the time to read this post, I know its far from Aircraft specific, I hope you do not mind too much.

OK, I’m done here, the rest is up to you.

2

I want to believe that I can take criticism well without being offended. I don’t mind someone saying something like I missed painting the ends of the propellor or some such thing but if they tell me that my tail number is one digit off, then I know they are picking and not constructively criticising. There have been times when I would have liked to ask the poster a question like ‘what the heck were you thinking’ but that no matter how I would word it, it would be misconstrued.

I think you need to remember that not all of us build at the same level. And some of us cannot denote between helpfulness and outright criticism. Ripping to pieces is not helpful either. The last thing we would want to do is discourage any one from ever posting here again and even stop building models altogether because one guy decided to rip on someone.

Good luck.

3

Ranger, I think that is the beauty of a dedicated forum such as the idea presented to us (which I think is a great idea). Everyone knows prior to posting there what to expect (to a certain extent), and can either lurk and learn or become an active participant if they believe their skin is thick enough to handle honest critiques of their work.

4

Ranger,

Its a very good point you make about remembering that all of us here build at at different levels. We don’t automatically know someone’s skill level when we see a picture of their work and I am very much in the camp of giving positive, constuctive feedback and not rivet counting which some people do.

The way I look at the idea is if we post on a critque forum, people may find fault with our work. We are aware of that before we start. My hope is that most of us here are above petty fault finding and are genuine when offering advice.

Perhaps “Ripping to pieces” is a bad choice of words, it was not my intention to encourage such a thing and you are indeed right-it is not helpful. Its a phrase I have used for a while, to mean "have a close look at."I dearly want to encourage all modelers regardless of ability, and to my mind having such a forum would be be a good idea.

5

Hi All

Criticism should be expected to any who post their work to the public eye. But criticism does not mean degrading a persons work to the level we have read and seen recently on this forum.

I have often heard the expression “There are those who preach and there are those who do”. During my 20 odd years as a professional modelmaker, or as I describe it Freelance Freeloader, getting paid for what I enjoyed doing-what a career, I have of course done and have often been employed in a tutorial role to young adults who wished to learn and were willing to be preached. During these occassions I have always tried to keep my critique on a constructional level and attempted to help them push their skills further. I feel constructive criticism should be taken as that and wether the recipient takes note is their choice, and there is always the option to return the gesture to the critic if they post their work.

Rather than have seperate forums, how about a grading system such as junior, novice, expert professional etc, chosen by the person iniating the post, that can be taken into account when comments are first placed.

6

Personally I whole heartedly support the idea. I hang out here for 2 reasons. I am here for the camaraderie and to learn. My goal is to get better with every model I build and want each and every thing I post here to be criticized. But it has to be constructive criticism. Like… “I noticed a bit of the seam on lower rear fuselage.” OK I missed that let’s say. But I don’t want to here, and I am sure nobody else does either, “What a loser piece of crap. Why don’t you put your head under a bus?” Sorry, but I won’t learn anything from that. I try to get a member with judging experience to critique the models I bring to our club meeting each month, if there is time

The guy molder that has come back to the hobby after a looooong break and posts a pic of what may be a great model… to him… maybe he just needs a little stroking to build his confidence and keeps on building. When ready, he can go to the “Critique” area to now try and hone his skills. I am not too crazy about the idea of a ranking system. That would mean having to quantify what each level is and make judgments within each tier. Getting too complicated. A visible seam is a visible seam whoever does it.

If we start a Critique section… that’s where you’ll find me.

7

Tango 1,
I think a Critique Forum would be a great addition - if everyone plays nice and replies with CONSTRUCTIVE criticism about the pics of models posted there.
All too often you see nothing more than “Great Job! - Nice Job! - Lovely job!” when someone posts a pic of an ordinary model - there’s no point in that (in a TEACHING sense) and it helps nobody (but does a great deal to ENCOURAGE) - but how can a modeler push the envelope and grow, learn, and increase their skills unless someone takes them aside and tells them how to do something better?
A Critique Forum would be fantastic - dedicated to people who have built a model, but want to do better next time and want some hints on how to do just that.
Again, I speak of constructive criticism…“this is how I solved this problem or overcame that difficulty…” helps a great deal.
For many years I gazed at the models in FineScale with awe and wonder…and understood that to gain those skills I had to “push the envelope”. I READ the mag - and experimented with the tools and materials discussed in the articles - it worked - and like Garyallum, have been a professional model-maker for more than a decade (imagine getting PAID to engage in a hobby!!!) and believe that the application of the skills and techniques in the feature articles and How-To articles have really made all the difference. Now, I get paid to make models. Gerald Wingrove I’m not, but I do alright.
Without the criticism of my work (generaly self criticism), I’d never have been able to be in the position of accepting contract builds.
I think that a Constructive Criticism Topic is a darned good idea - let’s all get behind it - not to dump on others, but to help lift them up to a higher skill level and make them feel better about themselves and their hobby.

8

I think a critique forum would be outstanding. Too many times a modeler has posted a poor model, actually asked for criticism and got nothing but “great job”.

It would be great if you could get this thing off the ground.

9

A seperate forum is an fine idea, but also agree and have said this before. If you post picture on a public forum you should expect it to be critique. If that bothers or you don’t care that others think then why post the pics in the first place? that’s like taking a hotrod to a car show and expecting the gearheads not to have an opinion. A seperate forum will not stop someone from ripping up anothers work if that what there here for. On the same coin I can’t seem to get a strait review because some of you a afraid you might hurt my feeling. No model is a perfect model If you can’t find a problem it because your not looking, (don’t know what to looking for)or the pictures are fuzzy. If you knew the skill level of the builder that would be very helpfull but many times you can get a feel for it by the level of there build. not everyone build the same way or at the same skill level, and you do have to factor this in.

Example

Someone on here has a killer hellcat (I think). This piece was as good as it gets. I nit picked the ONLY thing I could find the roundel was not weathered enough on the fuselage when compared to the rest of the work. It’s not a error, a mistake, or even a problem. just an observation on my part based on the overall consistenty of the finish. I would never mention that on a lesser build or someone who skills are not up to that level. Bottom line that work would be very hard to beat at a contest. But if it came down to to it a judge may flag that as the only reason for second place. So next time this guy may beat me out becasue of advice I gave him on here. Weathering in decals is an difficult advanced skill I would not look for in even some experienced modelers., but I thought this subject was that good. I did not hijack his thread, but If he ask I would do my best to teach him how to do it. He’s already 90% there now. Know what, he probably could teach me a thing or 2 as well.

You will always have people who will act out of line or get offended a little too easily. Nothing you can do about that. But that’s no reason not to help out the ones who are here for it. As a judge I call it as I see it. If I think I can help someone out I will.

Finally I do agree there is too much of just give it a “that a boy” so to speak and go on. It seems sometimes people are not even giving the pics a good look or the time to say anything constructive about the subject at hand. If a seperate forum will help this I’m all for it.

10

I agree that a place where constructive criticism is asked for and encouraged would help not only builders but also viewers who are trying to spot things (which would translate to them watching for things in their own builds). It is very often that you see something that you know could help someone improve and are afraid to say it at risk of sounding a know-it-all jerk. Also, I know when I post things and ask for criticism people probably feel the same hesitance to say anything to me. A place where it was done well and respectfully would be wonderful!
Leon

11

I think that would be a good idea. I agree with what the others posted. It needs to be only for constructive critisism. I do not post pics of my models even though I have been modeling on and of for thirty years. My finished kits do not compare to some of the work I have seen posted here. I know some members would say nice job and such because they are supportive but in the end they need only satisfy me. i would like to be able to post them in a forum and have others point out something that I could have done to improve a kit so I could apply it to the next kit I build. Even without posting my kits here I have learn volumes from reading this forum every day. Sign me up!

Soulcrusher

12

It shouldn’t be viewed as “criticism” regardless where it is. It should be viewed as suggestions or recommendations. People may view the word itself as negative which would lead to someones feelings getting hurt. We are our own worst critics so criticism from another is not neccessary. Even if that person asks for it. However, recommendations for a better build may induce a more positive tone to the person. It appears to be all in the ‘tone’ of the response. I have made positive suggestions in the past that seem to have been taken for what they were…help.

The more experienced builders should be willing to suggest and not bite their tongues if they can help. The builders asking should also be willing to listen, especially if they ask for it.

So, no I don’t think we need a seperate forum for criticism. It should be done here with all this in mind. Having a seperate forum may draw seperation between forum members old and new. I think we are all in this hobby together. Just my [2c] worth…

Andy

Andy

13

Andy,
You’re right - all engouragement, unsolicited advice and prods “in the right direction” SHOULD’NT have to be saved for a “special Forum”…but posted right in the main Forum Subjects.
Regrettably, that just doesn’t seem to be the way it ends up working out. Most all replies to requests for comments elicit feedback that’s nothing more than kissy-kissy…regardless of how much of a mess the builder has made.
THAT’S the issue I’ve always had with most of the “tell me what you think” replies. Often nothing more than sycophantic, boot-licking, worthless replies that contribute nothing more than to feed egos. But in there lies the conundrum - just HOW do you guarantee that your suggestions on better building won’t be taken as rude or abusive? Some people have very thin skins, and even if they ASK for comments, don’t like hearing them.
I guess the point that’s been made is that very, very few Forum Members will EVER tell somebody that pics they’ve posted of their very ordinary model isn’t a shining gem…sure, encouragment is a great thing and I applaud it at all times…but like I said in my earlier post, unless you are encouraged by those with more skill, how can one expect to learn and develop?
This holds true for all elements of your life, not only scale modeling.

14

I fully agree there should be a seperate forum. As others already said, there are to many “great build” / “nice job” replies.

To keep a good perspective though, I do think that somehow it should be possible when you add a post that you select you age AND your years of modelling experience (drop down menu?) This way people actually giving their feedback can be more accurate with their geedback.

Hope to see this forum soon!

15

A “Rate My Model” forum might be a good derivititive. Sort of an impromptu judging forum, if you will. Most of us know about modeling contests and either enter or do not. Some for fear of critique, some because they cant get to them or for other sundry reasons. This way all of us, both expert and novice, can be a rated within a “quasi contest,” without ever leaving home. Then, when a real contest comes up, we may feel better prepped to enter.

On the ineternet there are many sites devoted to this “rating game”: rate my looks, rate my car, rate my girlfriend, rate my girlfriends thong… well, you get the idea.

I suggest it be done as a fun sort of “Rate Me” forum, with both a numbering scale and constructive criticism as part of the deal. As has been noted already, if you post pics to public forums, especially those peopled by devotees of detailed subjects, then you can expect both opinion and critique. Simply state this openly on the landing page. This way, the taking of subjective offense can be minimized (although not eliminated - you cant please everybody, no matter how you try.)

Of course, civility should be maintained and it should be up to the forum users to maintain it. If anyone gets out of hand by being rude, obnoxious or just plain nasty (called “flaming” in 'Net lingo), warning can be given and discipline meted out by banishment from the site altogether, if infractions are severe enough. Only a moderator is needed beyond the good judgement of the members themselves. This, too, is done elsewhere.

Finally, this can be another profit-making tool for the marketers of FSM. Advertise it in the magazine and it would very likely add additional participants to the On-line site, especially the younger folks, who are already accustomed to such Rate Me venues. In turn, this gets more exposure to the many advertisers and more money being spent. Ultimately, the pie grows bigger and so do the pieces which everyone shares - all with the addition of a low cost forum segment.

Nowadays we call this a “Win-Win” situation. I’m all for it.

16

Regrettably, that just doesn’t seem to be the way it ends up working out. Most all replies to requests for comments elicit feedback that’s nothing more than kissy-kissy…regardless of how much of a mess the builder has made.

This I agree with too. However, we have to take into account the skill level of the builder. Most posts will tell you where they are on the level. Rarely have I seen where a builder has made a “mess” of something in the past year. Usually they state they tried and retried to fix the problems.

If some folks tend to be sensitive about feedback, then they should not ask for it when they post.

17

This is a great response! Much better than I could have hoped for, I’m really greateful for everyones thoughts on this idea. I know its very early days, but the consensus seems to be that a critque forum would be a goood thing.

Another thing that pleases me is that all of us here agree on wanting to encourage modelers of all abilities. I’m also glad that many of you have voiced the fact that we are not looking to bad-mouth anyones work here, nor we will tolerate those who do. Good thing about FSM is that that sort of nonsense is few and far between.

I’d like to relate to you two of my experience’s concerning feedback:

As a newbie I posted a pic of a not very well done P-47D on another forum. A couple of folks said “Not bad…” Another guy said “Why did you pose the flaps like that? It looks stupid!” I looked at my model and could not fathom what he meant so I asked him. He said I obviously knew nothing about aircraft, but never told me what the problem was.

The point of this tale is that it would have been so helpful if the guy had told me what was actually wrong instead of telling me I knew nothing. I have a thick skin so the comments didn’t bother me, but I can see how other people new to the hobby could be put off sharing their work. This is what I see as an example of “Not what to do.”

I had had a much better experience right here on these boards. Some time ago I built a diorama of a tank driving through ruins. It was’nt about to win any prizes, but I was happy enough to show it to others. Another forum member replied and pointed out a few things that could improve the model. His comments were polite and constructive and with his help, my dio was greatly improved. I learnt some new techniques and as a result my work got that little bit better. For that, I am very thankful.

My point is that constuctive criticism works. It can be of great value to us all so long as we remember one thing: This is our hobby and we do it for enjoyment, for fun. If we keep that in mind, we can’t go far wrong.[;)]

End of waffle.[XX]

18

After reading the above discussion, I feel like adding my [2c] to the discussion. First, let me say that this has been an outstanding debate, with many good points brought forth in a gentlemanly manner.

As an intermediate (at best) skill level builder, I welcome constructive criticism on my builds, how else will I learn? I have had many excellent critiques given and the suggestions benefitted my subsequent builds. The level of expertise and the willigness to share information and techniques on this forum is phenomenal, and it makes us all better modelers. True, there are a few who would tear down anything presented and it is a shame. I am not at all opposed to a separate “Critique” forum, but I question it’s need and possibly it’s wisdom. It may well devolve into a flame war for those who must (cruelly) nitpick another’s work.

One further thought, wouldn’t it require a forum for each modeling discipline? After all, an armor builder will probably not be over enthusiastic about a sci-fi or aircraft build, and vice versa.

Again, this is My Humble Opinion, and we all know the old adage about opinions…anyhoo off the [soapbox]!

Brian [C):-)]

19

Not really, Brian. It can be in a general forum, displaying all disciplines, and those who wish to comment can comment. I’ve seen many here who build in more than just one catagory. Plus, it may inspire a modeler to try a topic they have not yet attempted, especially after reading some honest critique on individual pieces and using those critiques as learning tools about that particular topic.

20

Well, I know I am a newbie here and I havent posted much work, but when I do post my work here it is done to get the opinions from my peers. I may look at my finished work and think it is junk but in others eyes it may be just fine and vice versa. I also would hope that any mistakes that I have made in the process would be pointed out so that I wouldn’t make those mistakes again. I am not sure if another forum for criticism would help or not, but I do know that if you can’t take someones advice or criticism of something that you may not have done right on your kit, then maybe you shouldn’t really post it here. I post here knowing in advance that anything that is wrong with my build will be picked out and corrected (hopefully, there wont be anything wrong with it though[:-^]). This is one way I learn from my mistakes and without the criticism I may recieve, how would I get any better?? Either way, new forum or not, everyone here who has critiqued my work and given thier honest opinion, I thank you!