A bit of a rant, looking for honest opinions

Modeling Subjects Armor
21

Hard to add anything to this thread. I agree with alot of Rob, Bill and Eric’s statements. I’m as guilty as most with the looks good overkill, but sometimes it’s hard to elaborate. I feel it’s rightful to the builder and the forum to be as truthful with one another. I don’t believe in dissing anything, because we all know how much time and so on it takes to put some of these kits together. I believe it is also positive to the builder to point out the good aspects as well as the negative.

Historical aspects have their merits and their pitfalls. I think we all try to do as accurate job as possible, but like someone said earlier, maybe they don’t care, have the time, or the expertise to accomplish all the details that another member might be a stickler on going precisiously according to the book. Historical accuracy while important to me, can take the fun out a build. The level of expertise in the forums exceeded my expectations when I joined and now I fear will be shot down in shame by the forum for using the incorrect this and that, or painting the the wrong camoflauge. Still I’m going to do my best and be happy with what I build.

22

I checked out a model a while back and it was very well done, but had a glaring problem which I mentioned in my post along with saying how great it looked overall. The builder’s response was polite, but clear, he didn’t want to hear it. So now I keep my comments to “great job” etc. If there’s something really wrong, I keep my yap shut and don’t post at all. On the other hand there are occasions when the one doing the critique is wrong, or rather mis-informed. So I try not to say anything unless I’m sure about it, or I put a qualifier with it (I think, I’m not sure) etc.

23

Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. We evaluate things based on our own standards and skill levels. Experts most of the time can see a lot of errors in another member’s works while those who are just learning could barely see them.

I always appreciate those who praise and point out errors in my works. Posting pictures of ones work here means subjecting them to scrutiny. One should be ready for anything.

But I cannot say whether a member is lying (or not) when he makes a good remark on another’s work. Emotions are very hard to percieve through written posts alone.

24

Not to beat this thing til it’s dead but,

Thing is - I don’t think that’s what this forum is about. There are some tremendously skilled modelers but the majority of people here are not accuracy buffs or hard core plastic maniacs.

Tell you the truth - that’s why I am here

And thats probably why alot of people are here. I know I have more to learn about all aspects of military modeling - history, variants, and techniques. I think the majority of the people are here for information exchange and a chance to share some experiences with people with similiar interests

I know Aromorama has a particular part of their forum - specificly for lambasting ( well, scrutinizing) modelers efforts for the purpose of improvement. (never really seen anyone “open-up” on any one) Personally - I don’t think that would work here.

And truth be told - there is never a good experience when someone says “no, really be completely honest”

Yeah, but didn’t you play four years at U-Conn

25

Amen Jim. That fits me pretty good. I’m just blown out of the water by how much information these guys contain. Some of these guys are walking manuals. I mean this as a compliment of course. [^]

26

I have asked myself this same question too. This model or dio isn’t so great, so why’s everyone hailing it and making it sound awsome? (eventually I find myself doing the same thing- telling the member that it’s so awsome). But I got something to say about this that might be a little conflicting. I agree with the above quote. We are here to model history, whether horrible (violent dios [blood] done with taste) or great (a liberation dio of a town being taken from nazi control). When I first started modeling my goal was to have fun and play with the model tanks and planes I built. But as I got better at it my goal changed to making models not for play, but for historical accuracy and show. When my goal was to play with my models I built, they were crappy. I put them together in usually one day and they didn’t turn out great at all. I was in a rush to show it to my parents and play with the plane I just built. But when my goal became historical accuracy I began to take way more time on models and I began to learn new techniques and just got better at it and took the hobby more seriously. Then my models got better. So for some of us, we are used to turning out high quality, high effort models, but for some members their just getting through that “shift” from built in a day to built with a lot of work. I’ll tell you right now, if I had the camera and all the technology back then when I was making crappy one-day models and if I was a member to finescale, not only would I want to show my parents what I did, I’d want to show the people I know online that do the same thing as me. Here at the FSM community, there’s always a cheerful morale around. I heard on many occasions that newbies are so fascinated at how nice and clean the forums are. I couldn’t shut someone’s model down just because they didn’t have the experience or years of models like us. Their excited at what they’ve done and they want to share it. I just couldn’t tell them their models aren’t the best, because at the skill level I’m at the model is crappy, but to a newbie in the hobby, it would probably look awsome. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and I’m not saying sugar coat everything you say, but give compliments on a scale of skill. Thats what I do. If the modeler has been modeling for years and pulls out something amazing, I’m going to look for microscopic errors and historical accuracy. But if the modeler is sharing something he’s happy of and worked all day on, it may not look much to you, but it’s a lot to them. And soon they’ll catch on and learn all the techniques like us and get years under their belts and then they’ll be turning out awsome models. Nobody had to tell me my models looked like crapp. Over time what I thought was awsome would eventually become “wow, I can’t believe I built this cruddy thing, I used to think it was a great model!” And maybe it’s not aparent to them at the time, but the will relize their mistakes and will get better overtime as long as they pursue it. So I try not to be rough on the newbies, because they’ll relize what I was going to tell them and they will get better. So I try to not be too hard on the rookies and I try to critique based off of skill, because in the end they’ll get it eventually and start turning out awsome models. It just takes time.
Thanks for listening to all my rambling on this. Thats just my [2c]

27

Just my two cents but…and this may stir some flies, but…I think a lot of people post the “looks great” or “nice model” just to raise their post numbers. I think it’s an ego thing.

I consider myself an up-and-coming (minor league if you will) and I by no means am talented enought to levy a n honest evaluation. There are a lot of modelers in this forum that are a level I would consider experts and value thier critisim. I would rather recieve 2 crtical reviews from talented modelers with hard core fixes, than 25 “nice models”, again just my 2 cents!

28

Paragraphs could be neater, text font a liitle more weathered, hue is a little out,
perhaps a little more spell check, otherwise ,

looks great!

[:)]

29

I wuz kinda wonderin’ if this here thread shouldn’t mosey on over to the “General Discussion” forum.

It’s an interestin’ red.

30

I can consider myself competent to criticiize in only one subject and that is US Navy ships because I am immersed in the subject every day. I will offer criticism in that subject only. If I see something I like, I will give the builder an atta-boy. If I don’t feel like I’m qualified to judge but still don’t like the subject, I will stay mute and let the experts have their say. I still prefer armor to all other subjects but don’t critique other armor builders because I don’t feel my knowledge is adequate to do so.

31

now by no means am i shooting this down, i agree, in a way, with your opinion. but let me ask this. a person comes to your home with their new car, they pop the hood allowing you to see the engine. they encourage you to inspect the car from bumper to bumper. they have you set in the car and then turn on the radio to let you feel and hear the interior. then they ask your opinion. you being a friend who knows nothing of autos say, well i am not an expert but nice car.

similar to what happens here, i am by no means a professional model builder, nor am i an expert in many of the subjects. but i am part of this family on this forum. so when someone allows me into their world by showing me pics of their most recent build i look at it. inspect it, try to give an honest opinion. but because it is not in my area of expertise i only post “nice build”. it doesnt mean i dont have criticism or areas that i feel could be improved, it is just that is not my area of expertise. i do when the situation calls for it, state more of a reaction. but for the most part my ability to really help the builder with techniques and with accuracy is limited by my expertise.

again i do agree with you, in a way, but i want to make sure i state my reasoning behind such brief posts. not going to go into the star part of the statement.

joe

32

I am like the folks above. I usually won’t criticize unless its asked for. I might say that that track could lay better or work on the paint some more but Then agian who the he.L and I? Just because I may not agree with something doesn’t make it wrong. So I will give suggestions or opintions and the modeler can take it at that…a suggestion. Honesty aside the worst thing you can do for a budding modeler is tell them their stuff looks like crap! Someone did this to a man in my model club and it nearly did him in in the hobby. SO its ok to be honest with someone but like they said above build them up too with things they did well.

I encourage critique on all my projects… It helps me learn. BUT if your gonna critique then you better have a suggestion or an explanation. Lets face it it doesn’t help for someone to say something doesn’t look right with out being able to back it up…

33

Gino, I agree with you 100% about giving constructive criticism when it is warranted (and when is it ever not, really?[;)]). I’ve often considered broaching this very subject myself here in the forums. Personally, I would sincerely appreciate more constructive criticsm.

I do my best with every build I look at to try to find something to comment on that will help the builder to improve his or her skills. Sometimes, however, I’m just kinda blasting through the forums, taking quick looks at things here and there, and I don’t really have time to formulate an in-depth critique of a build. When I’m in that mode, I’ll drop in a quick “looks nice” just to let people who I’m familiar with know that I did indeed take the time to look at their work. Also, when I’m in that mode and I do come across something that really really needs a lot of work to bring it up to what most modelers would call a decent standard, I do not comment at all. I make a note to come back when I have more time to make some constructive comments.

I believe the key word here is constructive. Sure, if we post a build here, we should expect some criticism, but it might be quite hard for a newbie to hear a lot of harsh, unconstructive criticism (for example: “That looks like crap!”). When we offer a critique, to any level of modeler, we should be honest, but not offensive. As Steve mentioned above, we should try to use plenty of qualifiers with our comments (“In my opinion…” “I think…” “Maybe…” etc). Anybody wanting to improve their abilities should be happy to hear such criticism. I know I would!

Gino, have you actually had someone tell you NOT to critique their work? If so, that’s quite unfortunate, given your skills and practical knowledge of actual military stuff.

The selfish viewpoint: What bugs me more than seeing a “crappy” build getting showered with “unwarranted” accolades, however, is when I post one of my builds here and get no criticism whatsoever (and I explicitly ask for it!).
Now, I’m fairly confident in my modeling abilities, and I certainly do not think my stuff is “crap,” but I know there’s gotta be something about my builds that someone can give me some criticism about!
Don’t get me wrong, it sure does feel good to hear a lot of nice comments about one of my babies, but I really would like some pointers, too.
Actually, good ol’ Shermanfreak did tell me to tie down the stowage on a Sherman, once. Sage advice, kindly offered, and well taken.

As should all constructive criticism be taken: in the spirit of improving your craft.

34

I have a rather nice computer and one thing that bugs me is how another member can fairly critique a poor picture of the builders model. When I hear “looks great” and to me it looks like a big blur, I usually bypass that thread or ask for a better picture. Sometimes we need to be a little more honest.

35

Here I am, flogging the dead horse, but I had to contribute. As has been said over and over again, we are not all master builders, not all of us can grace the pages of FSM. I know for a fact that my stuff is not that good but Im sure that I will be posting pics here when my latest master piece is done. Posting your work is kinda like opening up your soul and letting complete strangers in. Harsh critisism could very well turn a burgening modeler against the hobby, or at the very least against this forum.

Secondly, who are we to quash someones work when we know little about their abilities? I’m sure if we looked long and hard enough at anybodys work we could find something to knit pick about. One of the real joys of this hobby is to look at others creativity and see how they did things. I think that is a big reason why we subscribe to FSM, go to IPMS meetings, and gather at hobby shops.

My two cents, take it for what its worth.

36

It is unfortunate that the negative side of criticism seems to take hold when advice is given. But I have to agree with those on here who believe that suggestions and critical evaluations should be leveled with praise and good points, too. We all started the same way , when models were thrown together with too much glue and not enough patience. And we all learned techniques to help improve our modelling skills. I believe we can share these things with others to help them move forward too. But it doesn’t have to be harsh or negative. These so called experts have much more responsibility to help others, when asked, to offer encouragement and sound advice.

A sci-fi enthusiast…

37

Dan, I couldn’t have said it any better or more succintly. Praise, critique, praise. That series of actions will do more to encourage the new modeller as well as the more experienced modeller to stay in the hobby, I, too , had an experience as a young modeler when a more experienced builder trashed my first contest entry. Not a “Glad you’e here” or a “Good try,and this will help make it better” but basically “Why did you bring that crap?” That attitude prevails in too many instances. If you have criticism to offer, wait until it’s solicitied. Offer encouragement along with suggestions for improvement. Keep the emphasis positive, and you’ll gain the respect and admiration of those you attempt to help improve their skills. Fail in that and you’ve lost all personal credibility.

38

I am one of those who has been building consistently for over 30 years. After all this time, it would be expected that I’d be a master modeler who builds the ultimate kits all the time! Newsflash: I am not. [;)][:D] I actually develop my skills more slowly than most people. I still consider myself a Novice modeler, even though my club has encouraged me to enter all my builds in the Advanced catagory and I have won a few awards in that catagory. [:I] Here on the Forums however, when I post pictures of my work, I still would like to hear constructive comments (read: constructive criticism) that will help me improve my work. I get them from my fellow club members, and I appreciate them for it. Imay not use the offered techniques right away, but eventually, I will.

I am also one of those who like to be as accurate as possible within the bounds of the existing kit pieces, or with something that may be simple to scratchbuild. I don’t have a massive research library, nor do I look at 100’s of pictures to get a very small something ‘exactly right’ (especially when working in Braille Scale![:0]) I don’t go out buying photoetch or resin AM parts, particularly if the parts will end up costing more than the model is worth. That’s just me, yet I have a high respect and admiration for those who have the budgets and the skills to use those parts to make outstanding kits.

Nobody so far has called any of my work ‘crap’, but if some master modeler were to do so, I’d tell him that maybe by his standards of building, maybe it is. But someone that good should also be smart enough to consider the level of my experience when critiquing my build, enough to explain what I did wrong, along with what I did right!

Finally, I love to hear good comments about my builds. It inspires me when my simple builds can impress better modelers than myself, as well as when my work motivates a less experienced modeler to build something better. At the same time, I expect those same people to tell me when something they see could be improved so I can learn to make a better model. As I said above, I may not use the offered technique right away, maybe not for months, but hearing it is very appreciative for me. It is more disheartening for me to see that my work was ‘viewed’ 35 times, and only five or six people take the time to say “thanks for posting, I like what I see”, or “Hey, I think you can make this better by…”. If you took the time to look, let me know what you thought!

I already know that I will never make something that is worthy of the pages of FSM; nor will anything I build ever hold a candle to the incredible work that is entered in Tamiyacon, IPMS Regionals, or IPMS Nationals, so don’t worry about making me feel inadequate. I already recognize that those who enter their work in those high-level contests are way out of my League, and I can accept that I’ll never be as good as them no matter how much constructive comments I get. It doesn’t matter to me, because I enjoy myself immensly building my kits, and learning how to improve, while sharing my work with all members of my IPMS club; this Forum, and anybody else who sees my work. [^]

39

Gino has a definate point , it is ok to encourage the younger modelers on their builds , which we all should do , and give constructive criticism to us older modelers , which I expect on my disasters here , if there is something wrong with my build , by all means tell me before I paint it ( case in point with my marder III , one of my fellow modelers pointed out I had the folding seats on the wrong side , and thus would open backwards , away from the action so to speak , I looked at it for months and did not catch that , thanks to that comment I saved myself much embarrassment should I have entered it in contest ) Us older guys want the truth to make us better modelers , we all can agree with that ! We learn from mistakes and sometimes a nuetral eye also helps out !

40

Dan, Ed and Duke,

Good points there my friends.

As an OOB modeler who don’t have the budget to spend for tons of references, AM, PE and even materials for scratchbuilding…I can only hope to build a very accurate model. In fact I have completed almost 40+ models but not a single one can be considered accurate or historically correct.[:)].

I build because I am having fun in building. I don’t think I can make something really accurate or perfect to win some awards or something…but I guess it doesn’t matter. That’s not what I am (or perhaps some of us here, too) are building for.

Does this make me or others who can’t (or do not really plan to) make an accurate model a lesser type of modeler?

We have to understand that people build for different purposes. And unless that modeler really asks for a detailed scrutiny of his model…we should be careful with our comments. Talking to somebody on the net is very hard as we can hardly show emotions or much so express our sincere intentions. Words alone cannot fully express our intentions. Add to that the fact that this is an international forum where members may not be able to understand some english words in their simpliest context.

We have to be careful…

A sincere and honest comment from a member could mean a very devastating criticism to another.

Finally…when we come to a point when we no longer feel the joy of building because of inaccuracies and the like, or when all we see in others (or even ours) models are the flaws and errors…

Then I think that is the time when we try to reorient ourselves to the meaning of “a hobby”.[:D]

Whether one’s model is crap or perfect, it doesn’t matter as long as he is having fun and relaxation with it…while building it and by looking at it after completing it.